Evidence of meeting #150 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'm sorry; it's less than the 18. We have eight advisers. Of the 18, eight are professional advisers. We also have staff who are of a more clerical nature to make sure the annual reviews, for instance, go out on time—
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
—and for all the mechanics, if you wish, of both the act and the code.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Okay. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the caseload. The caseload seems to me.... If you have eight people plus some legal counsel who might get involved in some of these where it gets escalated, you have a little over 200 inquiries, calls, per employee. That seems like an incredibly modest amount. Just having practised law previously, if you told me I had 200 calls and inquiries a year to deal with, I would say, you mean I don't have 10 times that amount?
Given we're dealing with estimates today, it doesn't seem to me that each individual has the fullest of loads, but maybe I have that wrong.
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think, Mr. Chairman, that the member raised the same issue last year.
I can assure you that nobody is twiddling their thumbs. There are some very complex matters when sometimes a public office holder makes a call about an issue, and sometimes it will take weeks or months to resolve the issue. Some of them are very complex. They're not all simple, and they require some follow-up.
There are several instances, as you pointed out, when legal advisers are consulted because there is a new or somewhat complex legal matter that arises.
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's the caseload and that's the number of employees, and I guess you'll have to take my word for it.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
That's fair. That's why you're here.
Every time you're here, and every time the lobbying commissioner is here.... I see that 18 employees are doing the core work, and there are supporting employees otherwise who do outreach, communications and HR. Every single time both offices are here before me, it seems there's massive duplication for small offices in HR, and there's so much coordination otherwise that is useful and necessary for the offices.
Are you of the view that it would make sense to combine the offices?
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The mandates are quite different. The group that we've added is different. It's conceivable that they could be merged. I have never really addressed my mind to it.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Just on HR and outreach alone, there are probably significant savings, no?
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I was an ADM of corporate services a long time ago and of course there could be economies of scale. It's obvious.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Thank you.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
In your view, do you have a sufficient mandate to do your job? I know part of the question that we're speaking about here with the estimates is about resources. Do you have the resources in your current mandate? As you approach different investigations over a not insignificant time in your office, do you feel that you have the appropriate mandate?
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I wish I had more authority to recommend something as an investigation is completed. All I have under the act is the power to analyze the facts and share that analysis with the Prime Minister. I do not have the power to even recommend anything under the act.
I wish I had that power because I think it could make a difference in the effectiveness, if you wish, of the process. In the code, the situation is different because there's an explicit power to recommend a sanction. I wish I had the same authority under the act.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I appreciate that. Where you would make a finding of impropriety, you would make a recommendation to cure that in some fashion. Is that the idea?
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That includes some measures possibly to make sure it doesn't happen again within government, as I did in my former mandate as the public sector integrity commissioner. I've done that on a few occasions because I had the latitude to do that under the statute. I don't in this one.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
You would only make comments like that, the idea would be, when some improper conduct has been done.
4:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Of course. Even if a contravention is not found, you can still have observed something that would cause you to make a recommendation. It's still possible.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I've not had many dealings with your office, probably thankfully. I haven't received many paintings. I don't think I've received any paintings. In fact, it's funny Mr. Cullen suggested that example. If my parents were watching, they would say, “Oh no, our son's not cultured enough to receive paintings.”
I have had one dealing with your office, and I returned the gift on your advice, but I disagreed with your advice. I think it continues to be wrong at law, and I've talked to some of my colleagues who have, in identical instances, received different advice from your office, which is of concern to me. I appreciate you have different employees and different decisions will be made and, of course, you won't make the perfect or right decision all the time. I think most of the time you will, but mistakes happen to the best of us.
When a mistake does happen, and a member of Parliament disagrees with the interpretation or a cabinet minister disagrees with the interpretation, do they have any recourse?
4:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Under the act there is a very narrow window for judicial review. Under the code there is no recourse outside of the House of Commons. Of course, the member has the possibility of raising it within the House of Commons and using processes within the House of Commons.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
To that end, if you issue a report outside of sitting weeks and there's something wrong in that report, there wouldn't be that same recourse.
4:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
If I issue a report under the code, I can only do so when the House is sitting.
4:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It says that I shall “report to the Speaker, who shall present the report to the House when it next sits.” I can send it to the Speaker. It's tabled in the House as soon as possible, and there is a right on the part of the member whose conduct has been examined in the report to ask to speak after question period for up to 20 minutes to explain his or her situation.