Evidence of meeting #16 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was exemption.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Suzanne Legault  Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Good morning, colleagues. We are now at meeting 16 of our esteemed committee on information, privacy and ethics. We're wrapping up our study on the access to information legislative review. This is the final day that we've set aside for ourselves to hear testimony, and we're pleased to have back, as our final witness, our initial witness Commissioner. Madame Legault. We welcome you back to the committee.

Colleagues, my understanding is Madame Legault has reviewed the testimony and wants to provide us with a little more of her opinions on where things could or should go, depending on what the committee deems appropriate. She's asked for a little more than 10 minutes, and I'm assuming that we'll let her speak until she's done.

We'll have enough time to go for the full round, which is about 50 minutes for questions and answers, and that will still give us plenty of time at the end to provide instruction to the analysts, should our committee go the full two hours.

Without further ado, Madame Legault, the floor is yours.

8:50 a.m.

Suzanne Legault Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee members for inviting me to speak this morning as part of the committee's study of the Access to Information Act.

I have closely followed your work, I have reviewed the testimony of the various witnesses, and I have read the submissions you have received during your study. In a short amount of time, you have gathered a significant amount of information that will guide your reflections.

I am also mindful of the fact that the government has announced recently a two-phase approach for improving the access to information regime. The first phase would seek to introduce a bill to Parliament consistent with the mandate letter of the President of Treasury Board with a few minor additions. The government is currently consulting Canadians on a number of proposals in relation to the first phase. The second phase would involve a more comprehensive review of the act, set to start in 2018, with legislative reviews every five years.

Mr. Chair, I understand the government's desire to deliver quickly on its specific promises. I also understand that, if Parliament decided to pass access to information legislation with an order-making model, a specific period of time must be set aside for the implementation of this regime. However, I must say that I am disappointed with this two-phased approach. Our Access to Information Act is clearly outdated and severely outranked nationally and internationally. It fails to strike the right balance between the public's right to know and the government's need to protect information.

The implementation of the recommendations in my special report would recalibrate this essential balance. They would bring Canada to the forefront of leaders in access to information legislation. The recommendations in my report are anchored on the highest standards and best practices for access to information legislation contained in laws of other jurisdictions, model laws, and guides, as well as in high-level reports on access reform.

However, in order to be of assistance to the committee as it prepares to issue its report on the review of the act, I have identified recommendations that, in my view, should be prioritized. These priorities have been identified for their greatest impact on transparency. I will address these priorities in turn: extended coverage, duty to document, timeliness, maximizing disclosure, order-making model, and mandatory periodic review.

Extending the scope of the act to ministers' offices and institutions that support Parliament and the court is a strong step in the right direction to ensuring greater accountability and transparency.

Ministers and their parliamentary secretaries, ministers of state, and the Prime Minister are public office holders who make decisions that impact Canadians. These decisions also impact how tax dollars are spent. Ministers and their staff need to be accountable in disclosing information relating to the administration of their departments or other responsibilities.

Parliament is also not covered by the act, but the combined budget of the House of Commons, the Senate, and the Library of Parliament was more than $500 million in 2014-15.

It's a similar situation for the courts' administrative support bodies. In 2014-15, the combined budget of the Supreme Court of Canada, the office of the registrar of the Supreme Court of Canada, the courts administration service, the office of the commissioner for federal judicial affairs, and the Canadian Judicial Council was more than $600 million.

In order to ensure the accountability and transparency of these institutions, the act must apply to them. I therefore recommend that the committee prioritize extending the scope of the act to ministers' offices and institutions that support Parliament and the courts.

Access to information relies on good record-keeping and information management practices. Without records, rights under the act are denied. A legislated duty to document, with adequate sanctions for non-compliance, is an essential amendment to protecting the right of access. A legal obligation to document the decision-making process protects access to information rights by creating official records, facilitating better governance, increasing accountability, and ensuring the historical legacy of government decisions.

Without a legislated duty, there is a real risk, and we have seen that in our investigations, that not all information related to the decision-making process is being recorded or appropriately preserved.

My provincial and territorial colleagues and I issued a number of joint resolutions calling upon our respective governments to create a statutory duty to document. I therefore recommend a comprehensive legal duty to document, with appropriate sanctions for non-compliance.

Timely access to information is a pillar of any access to information regime. Timeliness has been a long-standing struggle of our access to information regime. Delays are a frequent subject of complaints by requesters. Investigations of these complaints have revealed a culture of delay across the access to information system.

In chapter 3 of my modernization report, I make several recommendations to reverse a culture of delay that has depleted the right of access. These include limiting time extensions to what is strictly necessary based on a rigorous, logical, and supportable calculation, up to a maximum of 60 days. Longer extensions would require the permission of my office. The recommendations also seek to limit delays stemming from consultations with other institutions, other jurisdictions, and third parties.

Addressing timelines is a win-win-win. Requesters will receive relevant and useful information; institutions will be less burdened to respond to complaints that are time-consuming and constantly competing with processing requests; and, my cohort of investigators can focus their efforts on remedying refusal complaints.

About 40% of my office's workload deals with administrative complaints related to delays. The vast majority of these complaints are well founded. I therefore recommend addressing delays by implementing the series of recommendations found in my report.

The act provides that government information should be available to the public subject to limited and specific exceptions, and that decisions on disclosure should be reviewed independently of government.

However, under the act, many exemptions are not sufficiently limited and specific. As well, the act provides for exclusions, shielding their application from independent review. As a priority, the committee needs to address the exemption for advice and recommendations, the so-called “Mack truck” of exemptions under our Access to Information Act, and the exclusion for cabinet confidences.

By the way, Mr. Chair, there is a Supreme Court of Canada decision that has interpreted a very similar provision in Ontario, such that unless there is a legislative change for this provision, it will not lead to more disclosure unless there is a legislative amendment.

Policy and decision-making is at the heart of government. Although there is a public interest in ensuring the protection of full, free, and frank advice by public officials, there is an equally important public interest in providing citizens with the information they need to be engaged in public policy and decision-making processes. This information is necessary to have a meaningful dialogue with government and to hold government to account for its decision. This is particularly important in 2016, in the context of our open government initiatives.

Under the current exemption for advice and recommendations, information about priorities, policies, and decisions is broadly protected from disclosure. In order to limit its application to protect only the interest that is at stake, the provision of the advice, this exemption must be limited so it applies only where disclosure would result in injury. The scope and duration of this exemption should also be limited. I therefore recommend amending this exemption as a priority, if the government is to give effect to its accountability and transparency agenda.

With regard to cabinet confidences, cabinet is responsible for setting the policies and priorities of the Government of Canada. Ministers must be able to discuss issues within cabinet privately. Therefore, the need to protect the cabinet decision-making or the deliberative process is well established and recognized.

However, at present, cabinet confidences are excluded from the right of access under the act, subject to very limited exceptions. The exclusion that is written in the act is overly broad and goes way beyond what is necessary to actually protect cabinet's deliberative process.

I therefore recommend that the cabinet confidences exclusion be repealed and replaced with a mandatory exemption that is limited to when disclosure would reveal the substance of deliberations of cabinet. This would allow the commissioner to exercise an independent review function.

A public interest override allows for the competing interest of the public's right to know to be balanced against the interest the exemption protects. Considering the public's interest should be an automatic reflex when determining if non-disclosure is appropriate and necessary. I recommend in the report a list of factors to consider in weighing the public interest in disclosure. These include the government's commitments on open government, as well as environmental, health, and public safety implications or human rights violations. This list is non-exhaustive and actually could include other important factors, such as the rights of indigenous people.

It is paramount that this omission in the act be corrected to ensure the proper balance between competing interests. I therefore recommend as a priority that a public interest override be included in the act.

I have made a number of recommendations to strengthen oversight of the right of access. In my view, the most effective model is the order-making model, with orders subject to judicial review by the Federal Court. This model would include mediation, strong investigative powers, the discretion to adjudicate, and certification of orders as if they were orders of the Federal Court. The benefits of this model are clear and indisputable.

Orders from the commissioner would create a body of precedents that increases over time. Requesters and institutions would then have clear direction as to the commissioner's position on institutions' obligations under the act. The body of precedents would also reduce the likelihood that the commissioner would have to review issues that have already been adjudicated. It gives a clear incentive to institutions to apply exemptions only where there is sufficient evidence to support non-disclosure and then put this evidence before the adjudicator, as judicial review before the court is based only on the record that was before the adjudicator. The grounds on which the order can be set aside are limited, and the institution cannot introduce new evidence or rely on new exemptions.

This, Mr. Chair, is actually a situation that is currently making its way before the Federal Court in two cases where the parties are adducing new evidence of exemptions just as the matters are proceeding to court. This is not unusual in the current system.

An order-making model with a judicial review process would actually avoid these situations, because in that context it is the adjudicator's decision, not the institution's, that is under review before the court. It avoids the redundancy of having two levels of review of the same decision and could result in more timely access to information. The burden to seek a judicial review before the court is on the institution—not on the requesters, as it is in the current system—if the institution wishes to oppose a disclosure ordered by an adjudicator. It provides finality for requesters because orders of the adjudicator are binding unless reviewed by the court. In short, this model improves timeliness, instills discipline, and creates predictability.

The oversight model employed in the act needs to be complemented by additional powers to maximize its effectiveness. These powers include the ability to audit institutions' compliance with the act; to initiate investigations; to carry out education activities; to conduct or fund research; and, to advise on legislation, programs, and activities that impact on access to information rights. These powers are very similar to those included in the B.C. legislation, for instance, right here in Canada.

I therefore recommend a comprehensive order-making model, which would place Canada at the forefront of leaders in access to information legislation.

Should Parliament decide to follow a two-step approach to reform the Access to Information Act, the first-phase legislation must include a mandatory review in 2018 and every five years thereafter. This will ensure that a comprehensive review does in fact occur in 2018.

Mr. Chair, I wish to reiterate that the act has fallen behind modern standards. The result is that Canadians' information rights are not adequately protected. In my view, a comprehensive reform of the act is long overdue and should be undertaken promptly to meet the information realities of the 21st century.

Over the last 30 years and even longer, there have been extensive studies, debates, consultations, and reviews conducted with regard to this legislation. What is required now are policy decisions to reform the act.

We must make policy decisions at this point. The studies have been extremely numerous. The issues have been put forward and debated many, many, many times over the last 30 years.

Mr. Chair, as I have stated before, the act does not strike the right balance between the public's right to know and the government's need to protect information. Now is the time to take bold action to ensure that Canadians' access rights are protected.

I am looking forward to answering the committee members' questions.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you very much, Commissioner, for a very articulate summary. We appreciate your being here to once again bounce some questions and ideas off of.

We'll proceed to our initial seven-minute round.

Mr. Erskine-Smith, please.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you.

Thanks very much, Commissioner.

I want to start by asking about just the operation and the mechanism of exemptions. You've proposed that we repeal all exclusions and move to an exemptions-based model.

Just so I'm clear, where an exemption is claimed, your office would review whether that exemption is in fact valid. Once you make a determination, you would, if you also have order-making powers, order disclosure, which would then be subject to judicial review. In your view, it would always be subject to a court that would be making this determination at the end of the day.

9:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

At the end of the day, there is a process of judicial review that always provides a second level of review, which I think is appropriate. The main difference, really, between the ombudsman's model.... When we get to the court level, under the current model, it is what we call a de novo proceeding, so everything is back on the table. What we find, as I was saying before, is that institutions will put forward new exemptions. We have two cases before the Federal Court now. These have not been investigated. It's very problematic.

The other thing we find is that in situations where the government is actually very reluctant to disclose the information, we're not provided with very detailed representations. Then we get to court and there's a whole new set of more detailed representations.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

You mentioned that the exemption for advice and recommendations was the Mack truck of exemptions. I would assume that cabinet confidences are excluded—a significant amount of information that would otherwise be disclosed and that is requested.

Of the total number of requests received, how often is the government relying upon the exemption for advice and recommendations for the cabinet confidences exclusion?

9:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

It's actually in the report. We do have some information about the number of requests. It's at page 55.

In 2013-14, the data for that date—I can see if we have more updated data for that, but it would be along the same lines—show that 6,500 times section 21 was applied. At that time, we had about 60,000 requests overall in the system.

The reason it's the Mack truck is that advice and recommendations make up the meat of what's going on in policy decision, program development, service development, and these key decisions in terms of accountability. That's where they lie in those records.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

You recommend, in your recommendation 4.21, “adding a reasonable expectation of injury test to the exemption for advice and recommendations”. Would the list of factors or interests to consider with respect to injury be the same as subsection 4(1), the public interest override, or do you imagine these factors being delineated in advance or being developed over time? How do you see this happening?

9:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

It would be very much a case-by-case situation. For example, if you are receiving advice in relation to measures to be taken in the aftermath of the Lac-Mégantic incident, and there are recommendations being made and advice being given to a minister or to senior officials, then you would have to assess those particular records and that particular advice to see if there would be harm in disclosing that information at that time, as well as whether there would be an overriding public interest in the disclosure of that information, at that time.

It is very case-specific.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

With respect to your recommendation 4.22, which is the explicit removal of “factual materials, public opinion polls”, and other non-contentious...“statistical surveys, appraisals, economic forecasts”, you are suggesting that they be removed from the scope of the exemption entirely.

My question is, if we weren't to do that, if it is still subject to injury test, aren't these materials going to be disclosed anyway?

9:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

The reason why this is specifically mentioned in there is that it has been a recurring issue over the last 30 years. All the recommendations we have in terms of the exemptions are very specific to the experience we have had investigating these matters.

Even in the next annual report that we are going to publish, you are going to see that the issue of survey data has come up again, even though it was previously investigated by Commissioner Grace.

This is really to clarify that this exemption does not apply to these things. It is a matter of clarifying in the legislation something that is recurringly applied and excluded from disclosure.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Understood.

In recommendation 4.23, you recommend that there be a time limit for the exemption. One recommendation is five years, but the other is “once a decision has been made”. Wouldn't we also want to have “once a decision has been made” subject to an injury test? Once the decision has been made, whether it is a year after or...there may still be some injury to the government, in certain cases, in disclosing that information. Would that be subject to an injury test as well?

9:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

It would be an in—[Technical difficulty—Editor].

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Excellent.

Moving to cabinet confidences, you first recommended that the exclusion go and that it be based on exemptions.

If we turned to recommendation 4.27, I wonder if you could walk us through. You have five bullet points here as to where the cabinet confidences exemption should not apply. The first two strike me as.... Those would be “advice and recommendations”. The same principles—that information should not be subject to advice and recommendations—would apply here; “analyses of problems and policy options” would be subject to the injury test, the advice and recommendations.

Could you speak to the other bullet points, as to why you believe they should not be part of the cabinet confidences exemption?

9:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

The 15-year timeline.... We have put that forward as a benchmark so that you would have disclosure after a certain number of years, where a consent is obtained to disclose the information from the government.

Another bullet point is “to information in a record of a decision made by Cabinet or any of its committees on an appeal under an Act”. An appeal under the act would be under an order-making model; that is why we are using that, but basically the information of a decision.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I have only 15 seconds left, so really quickly....

The second bullet point is “to analyses of problems and policy options to Cabinet’s consideration”. In your view, that would be excluded from the exemption for cabinet confidences. Presumably that would be under “advice and recommendations” and subject to an injury test. Is that right?

9:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

What we are seeing in cabinet confidences is that the definition, as it exists right now in the act, is so broad that it potentially includes all of these things. Under the previous administration, we had dates and locations of cabinet meetings excluded under cabinet confidences.

The exemption is so broad that it allows for all these things. Yes, the portions of a memorandum to cabinet include background, analysis, and all these other portions, which could be included in the cabinet document but should not really be covered by a cabinet exemption, because this has nothing to do with the deliberative process.

That is why it is like that.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Understood.

Thanks very much.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

We now move to Mr. Barlow for up to seven minutes, please.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Legault, thank you very much for coming. I apologize if some of these questions have been asked as we have gone through. I am just stepping in today to fill in for a colleague who is going to his daughter's graduation back home.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

One of the things you mentioned during your presentation was that timeliness is a problem. Looking through some of the material from previous witnesses.... There are no penalties in place now for non-disclosure. It seems to be—some of the witnesses said—that non-disclosure is almost a culture within the system. I know you touched on...that there may have to be some sort of penalties imposed.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? What do you have in mind?

9:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

In terms of timeliness, I may not necessarily be in agreement with some requesters who may have appeared before the committee. My position is that if we had a proper discipline system within the legislation in terms of timeliness, it would address the situation much better.

We had a loosey-goosey provision in our act. There really are no strict timelines. There is no proper discipline. For instance, there are provisions on consultations where we may seek the consent of another institution, but if the institution doesn't respond, then the institution that's seized with the request just sits on it and waits. We've had many investigations that reveal that.

The problem is that if the other institution consulted doesn't respond, if a third party that's being consulted doesn't respond, then there should be a decision, and that should be provided for in the act, so that all the actors are actually aware that they must respond. They must indicate whether they consent or not to this disclosure by a certain time. It's just a question of providing specific timelines and the proper discipline in terms of timeliness in the act. This too has been discussed many times over the last 30 years.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Is it a matter of the legislation just being too vague? Do we need to tighten up timelines? What would be the penalties or the ramifications? How would you be able to enforce these timelines?

9:15 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

In particular, in an order-making model, we find that in other jurisdictions these issues of timeliness do not create a big problem within the system. If there is a complaint, the commissioner can simply issue an order for the disclosure quite quickly. That's what we see happening in Ontario and B.C. If the institutions are in default and there is a complaint, they know that an order can be made very quickly on these kinds of matters. These matters are dealt with very quickly in order-making models. The fact that the commissioner has the ability to order the disclosure really puts a lot of discipline in that part of the equation as well. I think that proper discipline in the legislated timelines and an order-making model would deal with the delay problems in the system.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thank you.

You also mentioned that there was some discussion regarding consent to disclose be granted if Canada has consulted with a foreign government, and the same is not objected to within 60 days.

Is this an international standard? Is this something that other countries are doing? I know you mentioned that we're falling behind the international standards. Could you elaborate on that?

9:15 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

What we find in these kinds of cases are two things. When there are issues dealing with other levels of government at the national level there's also an ability to seek consent. What we often find is that consent is just not provided. It could be a municipal government. It could be a police force. It could be any other kind of provincial entity. We find that it prevents disclosure because they're mandatory exemptions. Oftentimes it is Library and Archives Canada dealing with those cases. Oftentimes they are dealing with historical records. Unless there is consent, the institution can't disclose them because they can't get consent. We're basically saying that for anything that happens at the national level, because it's possible to get the consent within a certain period of time, it should be provided for.

Internationally, it should be done when it's reasonable to do so. It depends if you're seeking consent from the U.S., or if you're seeking consent from a country where we don't have diplomatic ties anymore, where we have severed diplomatic ties, or where we cannot obtain the consent. It would not be reasonable to do so.

That's why we've made that distinction in that context. The international standard is that you are careful to protect your international relations. That's why we're saying that you should seek consent when it's reasonable to do so. We recognize that in some instances it's not even possible or reasonable to do so. That's not clear in the act in the way it's written right now.

This is also very much anchored in our investigative experience. It really is based on the 30 or so years of experience, and on what we're hearing in terms of the difficulty in these cases to make a distinction between the national and the international jurisdictions.