Evidence of meeting #57 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigations.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC
I want to hear more about this.
There is also the relocation of the Office of the Commissioner, which is scheduled for 2019. Does your budget need to be increased? How should we prepare for this relocation? How does this relate to the discretionary funds?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The discretionary funds amount to about 8% of my budget, or approximately $300,000. We've learned that, over the years, there have been carry forward funds.
We're allowed to carry forward 5% of unused funds in the budget. Our funds have started decreasing because we need to use them more and more. The different central services, for example, are perhaps more effective for the government. However, when it comes to smaller organizations, the budget is affected.
Regarding the relocation in 2019, my colleagues from two other organizations will be here Thursday. They can talk a bit more about it. If I understood correctly, the relocation cost each of these organizations $2 million or $3 million dollars. In our case, I still don't know the exact amount. When the $300,000 in discretionary funds are exhausted, even if we obtain a mortgage, it will have a major impact. It could affect up to 10% of our annual budget. This will limit our projects and priorities.
Liberal
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Nathaniel Erskine-Smith
I'm so very generous.
Mr. Ehsassi, you have seven minutes.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Commissioner Shepherd, I want to join my colleagues in congratulating you for your 10 years of public service as a commissioner.
My first question has to do with convictions under the act. I understand that this year we had three convictions, and in total we've only had four. What would you attribute the increase in convictions to?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Over the years, since becoming commissioner, I have referred 14 files to the RCMP. For a variety of reasons, some of them were returned. I decided, if I had reasonable grounds, to continue with the code investigations. In terms of the convictions this year, of the last seven, four have led to convictions and three are still with the RCMP.
The office has worked with the RCMP in educating them on the lobbying file. I believe that the other files were as well documented and thorough in their analysis. I think the reason some of them were not looked at in the past, if I recall correctly, was that a “significant part” of duties was hard to prove, or else it was the timing of when things were brought to the RCMP's attention in terms of their being able to secure a successful conviction. Those were some of the reasons in the past.
We have seen with these that there are convictions. The first time somebody was charged and pled guilty, it was $7,500. I think I mentioned that the last time I was here. Now we've seen fines of $20,000 for one individual, and $50,000, and I think $9,000 for another individual. All three of them were appealed. The one for $20,000, though, was recently upheld at the appeal court.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Great. Thank you.
In your response, you were saying that if there was anything you would like to see improved, it would be to take a few lessons from the provincial models and introduce new monetary penalties.
Could you elaborate on that so we have a better sense of it?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Both British Columbia and Alberta have the ability to issue administrative monetary penalties. I think when you're looking at administrative monetary penalties, it's more about trying to correct behaviours than about penalizing things. That's when you get into the courts.
It's about the commissioner having the ability to look at something such as late filings. When you look at transparency and the impacts of late filings, whether or not something is put online on time, those are not things that would warrant going to the RCMP, which is why I introduced the education and monitoring. We do follow up after a year and monitor those individuals who were subject to education and monitoring. If someone were continuously to be a repeat late filer and have a number of monthly communications that were late, I still wouldn't see that as something the RCMP would probably go after, because at the end of the day, transparency would have been achieved, and registrations would be up on the website.
We're looking at having a stronger regime and having the commissioner be able to say there is a penalty here if you continue to be late. I would see continuing to use a lot of the messages we do now and looking at each case, determining the merits and deciding whether the appropriate measure is just to educate and monitor.
I've also seen that the City of Ottawa now uses what it calls compliance agreements, in which, as I understand it, both parties agree that there's been a breach and that they will endeavour not to do it again. The commissioner agrees that they will not proceed further. There's a signed agreement.
Elections Canada, I believe, uses something as well.
That's another avenue. When the act is coming up for review, I think those are examples of how the act could be strengthened on that side to help the commissioner have a better continuum of tools.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
That makes eminent sense.
Thank you for that.
I noticed that the position of deputy commissioner is vacant.
Liberal
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
He decided that it was time for retirement. That's the short answer. He enjoyed what he was doing, but it was time to retire.
I feel that with a new commissioner coming in, the importance of the deputy position is huge. Usually you want to be able to choose who your own deputy is, someone who would you and so on. For that reason I haven't commence a staffing process. In the short term, we're managing well. I have the direct reports reporting to me. Charles has, thankfully, agreed to take on the role of chief financial officer. The managers who were reporting to the deputy have stepped up to the plate. My other executives in their programs have done so as well.
I was asked as well about transition. I think understanding the deputy commissioner's position on a daily basis even better will help with the transition, because I will be able to brief the new commissioner on what the deputy was doing, and what they may want to maintain or change will be up to them.
It's giving me a better focus into some of the stuff that has been taken off my plate on a day-to-day basis.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Absolutely.
Thank you for that.
Lastly, you alluded to OECD comparative studies of how each jurisdiction is doing. You did note that generally speaking we do well in all areas.
What were the areas in which we weren't doing so well? Would you suggest that the OECD didn't really understand our regime, or is it that there are improvements that could be brought forward?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
We score very high with the OECD because we meet all 10 of the principles they have outlined for a successful lobbying regime. All of those have been met in terms of the education and ensuring that there's a website that's visible.... However, when I look at what I've seen within Canada and what some other countries are considering, the continuum of consequences that I mentioned for those breaching are one thing. The other thing, with regard to transparency, is that I think the monthly communication reports have improved transparency, and that is noted. I have said personally in front of this committee that transparency could be improved by having the listed lobbyists actually attending the meetings. At this point it's just the responsible officer.
With regard to the wording about “oral and arranged”, maybe removing the “arranged” part about the meetings would allow more encounters to be captured.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins
Thank you very much, Mr. Ehsassi.
We'll now move to the five-minute round.
Mr. Kelly, please.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you again, Commissioner. I expect that this may be the last time we have you here. It's been a pleasure to have you here in the past.
As we talk about estimates here, you've characterized your operation as “lean but effective”. I'm sure, as custodians of the public purse, we appreciate that very much. “Lean but effective” sounds like an excellent way to operate.
You did make reference to increased pressures, and I thought I sensed in your remarks concern about resources. You talked about your ability to have done more with less. You mentioned, though, the possibility of other things that might impact your ability to operate. Can you please share any of these further concerns you might have? What would put pressure on your operation?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Well, as I said in my opening remarks, a legislative review, depending on what happens with changes, will impact the registry and perhaps things like the outreach and education program.... I am very much in favour of the monetary penalties, but putting a regime in place would have an impact, so resources would be needed. There would not be the ability to do trade-offs.
In terms of pressures, the lease of the office being up in June 2019 and having to move will have quite an impact on the budget, especially if we're looking at the fact that having some kind of mortgage or whatever that we're paying back will have some—
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
That would likely, I hope, be a one-off scenario that could be addressed in a future estimates situation. From an operational point of view, what concerns would you see?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
From what I have right now, if it's status quo, we're able to maintain and deliver on the priorities that I have set out in the main estimates, so I'm comfortable with that. In the comment in my speech, I was looking more at the future pressures that are continuing to come up.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Okay.
Will part of the educational piece in what you do—informing lobbyists whose conduct is regulated by your office—include a piece on cash for access and the problems that surround that? We've had allegations, which I know your office is aware of, of registered lobbyists offering to host events, which you characterized as creating a sense of obligation, in contravention of the act. Will education be part of this on the lobbyist side?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The Lobbyists' Code of Conduct has rules that deal with the potential conflicts that can be created. One of those, as I was mentioning, is that there is an interpretation bulletin on political activities that discusses which political activities can be formed without creating that sense of obligation, and which activities, like organizing the fundraiser, would be ones that would actually—
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. The educating and monitoring come into it in different ways. If there is a breach of the code, there is a report to Parliament, and that is one way the education and outreach is done, aside from what is conducted in other matters.