Information & Ethics Committee on May 2nd, 2017

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It's probably fine. I was just curious about a ballpark figure. Of those investigations, we understand on our side of the House that a number of the cash-for-access fundraisers are being investigated, but you've said that you have adequate resources to continue the investigations...? I believe you said that earlier.

[Karen Shepherd]

I do, yes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay.

Getting back to the some of the transition I talked about earlier, you have, let's be frank, the Prime Minister appointing your successor. The Prime Minister is, I believe, being actively investigated. How does the office prepare for that? Do you have a team that's going to continue to work on these investigations now that the Prime Minister's own appointee is going to come in to investigate essentially him...?

[Karen Shepherd]

Well, what I can say is what I said about its being a well established office. There is a director of investigations with four senior investigators and a compliance officer working. Those individuals will still be around and carrying out the work. They have the highest professional integrity, so everything is in place for them to continue with files and to provide my successor, as they do me, with comprehensive files that are well documented and with thorough analysis.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay.

With these investigations that are ongoing, you have a dozen of the cash-for-access ones that have recently been reported. Are you investigating each of those individually, or is that a single investigation in your resources that are being used?

[Karen Shepherd]

I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Yes.

There's a report in the media about a dozen cash-for-access fundraisers. Are you and your office investigating those as one investigation, or is this something that you're breaking into each, single instance, I guess, in looking at how you're managing your resources?

[Karen Shepherd]

As I said before, when I was here at the last meeting I was asked whether I was looking into the situation, and I confirmed that I was. Because the act requires that I look at these in private, I'm not able to comment further on how we're looking at them, but I can assure the committee that, as I've always said, I take all allegations seriously and the matter is being addressed, and we need sufficient resources to look into all matters that are there.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay. I guess it's hard, then, to look at your estimates, knowing the amount of money that you're spending on investigations but not knowing if it turns into 12 investigations or if it's one. I'm sorry, but I'm going to press you on it just a bit more. Can you can give us a bit better idea of that?

[Karen Shepherd]

There have been a number of events.... First of all, as Commissioner of Lobbying, to proceed further I need to determine whether lobbyists were actually present at any of the events. I think that would be a fair answer to your question. There has to have been a lobbyist present and lobbying to have occurred for this to be an issue for the office, so I guess—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

In your—

[Karen Shepherd]

I'm sorry. If I may...?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay.

[Karen Shepherd]

To get at your question of sufficient resources in looking at estimates, as shown on the website, we do triage files when proceeding to make sure that things that are considered a priority are dealt with.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay. On your website, “Reports on Investigation” are named “Lobbying Activities of” a certain individual, so that would lead me to believe that there would be essentially 12 investigations ongoing. I guess you don't need to comment more on that. I'm just trying to connect the dots here on our side.

Lastly, there was something on the media. You mentioned that media requests are a part of your office—

[Karen Shepherd]

Media monitoring, yes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Media monitoring, correct.

With regard to the Santis Health incident, where there was a lobbyist from the Minister of Health's office who moved to Santis Health and seemed to exclusively be able to lobby health care clients, it seems to go outside the mandate of what the Lobbying Act looks at. I'm hopeful that's something that is being looked at in your office and that can be decided by the time you finish your mandate on June 28.

[Karen Shepherd]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jeneroux.

We now move to Madam Trudel.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Welcome, and thank you again for appearing before the committee.

I want to make sure that I understood the remarks made by my colleague earlier regarding investigations. The issue was whether to conduct 12 investigations or a single investigation. I want to know whether I understood the simultaneous translation.

How do you determine whether to conduct 12 separate investigations for one subject or one complete investigation for the same subject, when there's reason to conduct 12 investigations? I want further explanations, and I want to know whether I understood your response.

[Karen Shepherd]

When an allegation is brought to my attention, I look at the situation first. I can verify, for example, whether a number is different. I must first look at each event and verify whether lobbyists are present. If they aren't, I look at the case more superficially.

Strictly speaking, I didn't say there were a dozen investigations, since there may be a certain number of circumstances. I look at each allegation to determine the process to follow.

I then verify whether the person went to the event and whether the person allocated funds in accordance with the provisions set out in the Canada Elections Act.

In other words, did they give as they were allowed to donate, as per the Canada Elections Act?

The other point is the ban on politics and lobbying. Some political activities don't include obligations. One of our bulletins describes the specific circumstances in these cases. Certain activities, such as fundraising, constitute a right, so there may not be any obligation. However, the situation is different when it comes to organizing an event. In each case, we need to verify whether lobbyists are present and look at all the circumstances.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, when we met with the commissioner, she was asked about the continuity of investigations.

Will the investigators finish the investigations in progress and your predecessor's investigations?

[Karen Shepherd]

Yes. The registry of lobbyists was established before I arrived. When I became the commissioner, I resumed certain administrative reviews and some investigations. My successor will do the same thing. He or she will resume and finish the cases in progress and make the necessary decisions in the new cases.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Let's talk about the discretionary funds mentioned in the conclusion of your presentation. You said it would be difficult to comply with your mandate in the near future, because “over the years, there are less discretionary funds available.”

[Karen Shepherd]

Yes.