Information & Ethics Committee on May 4th, 2017

[Suzanne Legault]

Layla, you can look at that. I know we did some computer purchases this year, but the numbers you're looking at are amalgamated between the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and our office. Our purchases are nowhere near the scale of the Privacy Commissioner's Office. We were about $86,000. They are about $600,000, and it's mostly computers.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Mr. Kelly, please.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thanks for the presentation, but there are some elements of this that are somewhat troubling. I noted your discussion of a declining performance of institutions. That's very disappointing for me to hear for a number of reasons.

The President of the Treasury Board recently announced that his review of the act would not happen by spring 2017, which is coming and going now. How is the delay in phase one going to affect your budget and doing something about the root causes of the ever-growing number of complaints in your office?

[Suzanne Legault]

The funding that we're getting is temporary funding, and the funding we got last year was temporary funding—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Indeed.

[Suzanne Legault]

—waiting for amendments to the act. This year we're in the same situation because we haven't seen the amendments to the act yet, and of course, we're not dealing with the root causes of problems with the Access to Information Act. But there is a reality. The reality is that for a reason unknown to me, and it may be just an increased awareness of citizens, or a lack of satisfaction with the disclosure of information on a proactive basis, the access to information requests are going up exponentially.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You said that there was declining performance of institutions, so that's beyond just citizens being aware of what their complaining options are. You are singling out or identifying the non-performance of our government's institutions to deal with access to information requests.

They know order making has been recommended by this committee. That power has been recommended. We have had promises from the President of the Treasury Board to act on these recommendations, and those promises are not being kept so far. I don't think we want to come back each year to discuss and approve temporary, one-time band-aids to give you more money so you can try to keep treading water on complaints. We want to get on with creating a better access system.

I'm not sure if there's much you can say to this. Were you disappointed to find out we weren't going to get the review that we were promised?

[Suzanne Legault]

I'm extremely disappointed. I've said that publicly before. This is something I really believe in. At the same time, I really do believe that Canada has everything that is possible to really become a truly outstanding world leader in this field. This is because we have very well-established democratic institutions. We have a good system of access to information embedded in our institutions, and yet we have a completely outdated law. It's the one single piece that is missing to really make Canada a true leader in the world. In this particular time, it is of the utmost importance. I truly believe that. My disappointment is not just for the OIC and for Canada, but I really believe it would have an impact around the world. For that, I'm greatly disappointed.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Have you had any reaction directly from the President of the Treasury Board? Has he explained to you why there is the delay?

[Suzanne Legault]

I've had no other explanation besides the explanation I've given in the public domain.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

When we reviewed the act and discussed one-time supplemental funding for the backlog a year ago, it was your belief then that order making power was the answer. If you had order making power, that would end what has been described as the culture of secrecy within institutions. It would actually lead to fewer complaints and demands on your office, and would get away from this continual treadmill of having to apply for extra money to deal with the backlog of complaints. Do you agree still that if we actually can get there with order making power, that would be the result?

[Suzanne Legault]

I don't think that order making power on its own will make that much difference in terms of complaints and levels or requests and whatnot.

My proposals were 85 recommendations—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Yes, indeed.

[Suzanne Legault]

—and they do stand together. This committee made 32 recommendations, and these too stand together as well.

Order making power is a key component. I firmly believe in that, but the review of the exemptions and the exclusions in the act is also a key component—a public interest override and so on—and many of the recommendations that this committee made all stand together. If the first phase of review is delayed, I'm still hopeful that maybe we will get a more comprehensive review in a one-time proposal before the next election.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

To what do you attribute your observation of the declining performance of institutions?

[Suzanne Legault]

Every year the government publishes statistics. The detailed statistics were a result of recommendations we made some years ago. Every year, I review all the government statistics and we do an analysis of those. This year, I'll publish that in my annual report, but what we've seen is that there has been a decline in the number of files that are responded to within 30 days.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'm sorry. I wasn't doubting you. It was more that I was wondering to what you attribute this declining performance.

[Suzanne Legault]

I think the institutions are overwhelmed with the increases, for sure. I'll give you an example.

We met with the Canada Revenue Agency's executive committee on a couple of occasions, because they're in serious difficulty. It's one of the institutions that receive the most requests, and very complex requests. The recommendation I made to them is that they needed to have people in order to answer the level of requests they were getting. In terms of the level of requests, the number is one thing. The other two things that are really important is that the government really does make an incredible number of redactions on the records and we see that in our complaints.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

We know that very well. Yes.

[Suzanne Legault]

Therefore, that is extremely labour-intensive. There is a lot to be said for really moving from a culture of secrecy to a culture of openness. I think there are good intentions from the government in that respect. I've certainly been at the table with deputy ministers this past year. I hadn't before. I think there is a good intention, but I don't think that it has really made its way through the various levels of the government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Thank you, Madam Legault.

Madam Trudel, please, for seven minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Ms. Legault and Ms. Michaud, thank you very much for your presentation.

Ms. Legault, since your term is drawing to a close, I would like to congratulate you on everything you have accomplished over all these years.

In answering a question earlier, you mentioned a drop in the performance of our institutions. In your presentation, you said you have begun a strategy to manage the complaints against Canada Post.

I would like to hear more about this drop in institutional performance, including Canada Post, and would like to hear your thoughts on that. Please elaborate also on the strategy to manage the complaints filed against Canada Post.

[Suzanne Legault]

Regarding the institutions, the 2015-16 data indicate that there really was a decrease in their performance as to disclosure in 30 days, that is to say the number of files for which a reply was provided in 30 days. That drop was not very big, but there was one. We did, in parallel, see an increase of 10% in complaints regarding delays. We can't predict the number of complaints. However, we do this analysis to get a sense of what is coming. That would be a partial answer to your question.

Another part of the answer concerns the files, that is the access to information requests where all of the documents were disclosed without redaction. That number also decreased. Among the most important institutions, we observed that some were experiencing difficulties. In the course of the year we will have to work with them as much as possible, because we noted that there really are some issues. These institutions are really in trouble, and that will have an effect on general performance. They are large departments: National Defence, RCMP, Health Canada, Transport Canada, and others.

Regarding Canada Post, that is a particular situation. The Federal Accountability Act came into effect in 2006-07. There is a provision in that act that applies to Canada Post only. There was also one for CBC/Radio-Canada. In the end, to process CBC/Radio-Canada files, we had to go to Federal Court to obtain an interpretation of that provision.

We are working on the files with Canada Post. Without an interpretation of that provision of the act, both we and Canada Post have trouble processing the disclosure of files. In light of that situation, we decided to work on the files in a particular and organized manner. This will allow us to arrive at an agreement, or a decision from the Federal Court if that proves necessary.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Was the situation the same with respect to the Phoenix pay system?