Information & Ethics Committee on March 22nd, 2016

[Larry Surtees]

What we will do is provide the information we have that has been given to us by a third party. We would come up with this when we're reviewing the documents and have information that has been included in a briefing note, a situational awareness report, or an “after actions” report that relates to an activity of another government department.

For instance, when we were in the Afghanistan conflict, we were working with partners. If we were involved in an incident that involved any of our partners, we would say, this is the information we are looking to release. We would then send that information through channels to the appropriate country and get their agreement to do so or not. We aren't asking them to dig up information; we aren't putting an access request on them for a whole bunch of information. What we're doing is saying that we have included this information in our records and are asking whether they agree or not that we can release it.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

You mentioned Afghanistan. If you have three or four participants in the theatre at that time and a request is made to you, and one of the participants says “we don't want this information to be released”, what is the result? Is the information not released?

[Larry Surtees]

That results in the information not being released. We use an exclusion or an exemption that is provided for under the act. There is one that relates to security. We would use one of those exclusions that are currently provided for under the act, and the act provides that if a third party or a third party government doesn't authorize the release, there are specific sections within the act that allow us to redact that information when we do the release. We will do a release, but that information is blanked out and is not available to the applicant.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

To sum up, this committee will be studying some of the recommendations that have been made by the Information Commissioner. I know Madam Beck has highlighted one recommendation with which she has some challenges. Is there anything in the recommendations that have been made by the Information Commissioner that stands out for you that would impair or impede your ability to satisfy the requirements under the act?

[Larry Surtees]

Mr. Chair, with respect, the President of the Treasury Board is the person responsible for interpretation and for providing regulations and directions to departments on how to deal with the act and as to who would be responsible for moving forward with any recommendations on it.

We're working with them. I don't have any specific opinions one way or another with respect to the recommendations that have been made by the Information Commissioner.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

We'll move now to Mr. Kelly for five minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to address some questions to you, Ms. Beck. I notice in the summary performance for 2013-14 that the department received almost 30,000 requests and that this represented a 17% increase from the year before. A significant number of these requests were closed after the statutory deadline, if I understand correctly. From this I assume that the department may be slowly becoming overwhelmed by the sheer number of requests.

First of all, perhaps I'll ask you to quickly comment on what percentage of your department's overall resources are devoted to handling ATIP.

[Stefanie Beck]

The department has about 7,000 employees. If we are 70-odd dealing with ATIPs full-time as analysts, it is a very small number. It does not include, however, the staff within the department who would be reacting to ATIP requests on a daily basis; that is, doing their own searches.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Has this proportion been expanding over the last five years along with the increasing number of ATIPs? Have you been expanding your staff along the way?

[Stefanie Beck]

It has increased, but not exponentially.

[Michael Olsen]

It has not increased at the same rate as the number of requests we've received. At the same time, we've taken steps to improve the efficiencies through which analysts can process requests that we receive.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Regarding the proposals of the commissioner's report, “Striking the Right Balance for Transparency”, I understand that you have concern that this would increase the level of resources needed to cope.

[Stefanie Beck]

There would certainly be challenges.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay, and in particular if the non-citizen recommendation is adopted?

[Stefanie Beck]

Anything that would increase the volume of requests would be a challenge for us. As I said earlier, I do not think that we would be seeing an increase in available funding to be able to deal with them, so we would need to look at other ways of doing business.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Would a more proactive disclosure model reduce the amount of work going into responding to requests?

[Stefanie Beck]

I think that's where we're headed with the online access to people's own case requests. The more that we can put up and have available so that someone can go into their own MyCIC account, log in, and check the status of their case, the more this is going to be of assistance. There will always be parts that we won't release, such as the security information and things like that.

In what we did most recently with the Syrian refugee operation, I don't think we've ever put up so much information online. I hope all of you checked our website regularly. We tried to do exactly what you're suggesting, and we proactively put out as much as we possibly could, including the number of refugees coming in per day, points of entry, and where they were going in Canada. We put out information on demographics—the technical briefings we did for the media—and I think all of that helped. First, of course, it's open and transparent government, but also, I think it helped in reducing the number of ATIPs that we could have received. It's absolutely a good option.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

I'd like to move to the Department of National Defence and again talk about this recommendation for opening up requests to non-citizens and how this might affect Canada's security.

For non-citizen inquiries, how would you address the issue of abuse of process? I'm not sure how much you've thought about it or how much attention or resources you've put into the implications of all of the recommendations of the report. If non-citizens, foreign governments, foreign non-government organizations, and foreign citizens were able to have the same access to information, how would you deal with either frivolous or actually hostile acts that abuse our processes?

[Larry Surtees]

As I mentioned, we're working with the Treasury Board to address any changes that might be coming forward to the Access to Information Act. In fact, that is the organization that is going to address any of the concerns moving forward. We have not studied, and I'm not able to offer opinions with respect to, the comments that have been provided by the Information Commissioner in her report.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

At first glance, does it sound like something that would be a concern for you?

[Larry Surtees]

There are currently exemptions within the act that allow us to exempt security issues and to exempt information such as operational information or operational plans. There are current exemptions within the act that allow us to restrict that sort of information from going out. We'd have to do it today anyways, because you don't have to be a foreign national to be after that sort of information. The act does provide us with the protection we need to be able to deal with that.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

We'll move now to Mr. Long for five minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, everybody, for being here today.

I'll start with Deputy Minister Beck on the Information Commissioner's recommendations for amending the act. She recommends strengthening the oversight of the access to information regime. Do you believe the current oversight of the access to information regime is adequate? Why? Can you elaborate on that for me?

[Stefanie Beck]

We have a very close relationship with not only the Information Commissioner but also the Privacy Commissioner. As we approach every ATIP request, we have in mind what the act requires and what our obligations are. Our training and our awareness are dedicated to making sure that not only we, who are the experts in ATIP, are well aware of these obligations but that the rest of the department is also well aware of their obligations. That process is ongoing and comprehensive.

The commissioner regularly contacts our department, formally and informally, and it's perhaps as a result of the size of our operation. It might not be the case with other smaller agencies or other smaller departments, but from our perspective, we know that we are closely observed and we do our best to respond to and indeed pre-empt any complaints, as we outlined earlier.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Do you think or how do you think the oversight should be strengthened?