Evidence of meeting #6 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was atip.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would add one more thing.
We also have requesters who obtain information from us and then sell it. That happens often. They have a repetitive request that comes in, they take the information, and then they put it up for sale.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Is that something that needs to be remedied in some way?
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
That would be your job.
9:50 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I guess if you're looking at the intent of the act, is it part of the intent of the act that any government provides information that can be used for resale? Myself, I doubt that would be the intent of the act.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you.
We'll now move to Mr. Dusseault for three minutes.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Beck, one of the solutions could be to proactively disclose and to post on your website all the responses you have provided on access to information that are already available for free.
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, that could help, but I also think that the people who do that take the information and put it on their own website. They want to have an analysis next to a ruling. They compare with other information. Sometimes, it's slightly adjusted based on the audience.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
I understand.
I would like to come back to the Department of National Defence.
I spent a lot of time on the ruling rendered by the Federal Court. You said yourself that the Access to Information Act was quasi-constitutional.
I will read paragraph 8 of the judgment rendered by Justice Kane. I only have the English version. The following is stated:
“Despite this outcome, the applicant has effectively highlighted that the remedies for non-compliance with the Act are limited and that legislative change would be the only way to provide more options and remedies.”
Do you agree with what Justice Kane said?
9:50 a.m.
Corporate Secretary, Department of National Defence
That is the judge's opinion, and I'm not arguing with the judge's opinion.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
Do you think that providing more resources to the Department of National Defence to respond to access to information requests could be a way to reduce response delays?
9:50 a.m.
Corporate Secretary, Department of National Defence
No. I believe we will be improving our processes and our procedures to try to address those issues. I don't believe it's an issue of resources. It's an issue of coming up with a better process so that we deal with these issues up front. It's also an issue of telling people why we're doing what we're doing. I think that goes a long way to addressing this situation. And when I say “people”, I mean telling the Information Commissioner up front that here's an issue and here's how we're dealing with it, and telling the applicant. I believe with open communication we help deal with the potential for complaints.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
I will come back to the immigration issue.
My understanding was that more requests were made by the commercial sector—I am not sure whether this was the exact term used. That means lawyer firms and immigration consultancy firms are submitting the most access to information requests. The requests are not made directly by individuals.
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
People who live abroad and are not Canadians citizens have to use a representative in Canada. They hire them and pay for their services.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
If I remember correctly, the fee for an access to information request is $5, but consultants charge their clients much more than that.
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, they charge more than that. However, to be fair, I should remind you that consultants and lawyers add their own opinion and provide more context. They provide much more information than we do following an investigation. The prices vary greatly.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Dusseault.
That concludes our second round of questioning. Considering that we have a few more minutes, I would open the floor to members who may wish to speak. I myself will start with a quick question.
One of the recommendations of the commissioner, which she has discussed at length in front of this committee, is that currently she operates under an ombudsperson model whereby she can make only non-binding recommendations. She wishes to move to an order-making model, which is somewhat the norm, I think, for access to information commissioners. I'd just like to have your take on how it would impact your relationship with the commissioner if we were to move to an order-making model.
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
If you decide that is what the role of the Information Commissioner should be, we will of course comply and do whatever she orders. At the moment, she does not have that role, which gives us, I guess, a little more flexibility in areas where there are concerns. I think we have the most concerns about security and safety, and health and safety issues. We would want to ensure that the Information Commissioner was very well briefed before she made decisions that might have an impact on those kinds of very serious issues. I would include in that, by the way, cybersecurity and information security issues, not just issues of health and safety, because eventually that is what that would mean. Treasury Board Secretariat is reviewing what that recommendation might imply for us if you were to go ahead and make that change.
9:55 a.m.
Corporate Secretary, Department of National Defence
I really have nothing further to add to that. That's a nice job of it. Thank you very much.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
I have another question about the commissioner's powers.
When you justify a refusal to provide certain information in compliance with the exclusions or exemptions under the law, would it be acceptable for you if the commissioner could see the documents in question to determine whether the reasons you gave are well-founded?
9:55 a.m.
Corporate Secretary, Department of National Defence
That happens today. We provide the commissioner with all of the information, including what we've redacted and why. We often get complaints from people saying that we've taken things out that they don't feel we should, and we have that frank discussion with the commissioner today, so that exists under the current operation.