Evidence of meeting #82 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was internet.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
I wonder if you could share with us the names of the other three individuals.
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I will, absolutely.
There was Janine Sherman, who was the chair and PCO deputy secretary to the cabinet, senior personnel and public service renewal. There was Ms. Yaprak Baltacioglu. She's the secretary of the Treasury Board. There was Ms. Sabina Saini. She was, at the time, chief of staff to the president of the Treasury Board, Minister Brison. Also, there was Ms. Hilary Leftick. She was the director of appointments at PMO, or probably still is. There was also a lady by the name of Ms. Kathleen McKillop. She was the scribe taking notes.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thank you very much for that.
I have just two other questions. Over the years, this committee has recommended greater clarity on the interaction between lobbyists and public officials with regard to gifts of all sorts and sizes and value. As you know, on the ethics side, parliamentarians have been discouraged from accepting even little paper bags with retail products from the producers associations and so forth.
What are your thoughts on gifts or tokens of gratitude or friendship that a lobbyist...? Where should the line be drawn?
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
That's a good question, where the line should be drawn.
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
From my years at the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, gifts are probably the things that cause most public officer holders the most angst, including that office as well. It's not always easy to figure that out. On the lobbyist front, the rule right now is simply that lobbyists should not provide a gift that would put the public office holder in a situation where they feel like they owe.... There is no amount on the lobbying side of things. This is where, I think, there is absolutely an opportunity between the two offices to join fronts and try to explain to lobbyists and public office holders exactly what the rules should or shouldn't be.
At the end of the day, for me, it's all fact-based. You can give somebody something and the public office holder will not think twice about it, but if you give that same thing over and over, for five days in a row and you know that it's their favourite thing to get, maybe it creates a relationship where the public office holder will feel they owe this particular person something. It's very fact-based, the role that the public office holder has, the type of lobbying. Therefore, I can't give you a rule, but I certainly understand that this is an issue that will need to be clarified for all.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thank you.
Finally, this committee has recommended—and previous Treasury Board presidents have said that they accept the recommendation—that the commissioner ensure that monthly communications reports contain the names of in-house lobbyists who attend oral prearranged meetings, in addition to the senior reporting officer.
I'm just wondering whether you think that would provide greater transparency, on a monthly basis.
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
The monthly basis is already a requirement of the act. Right now, that needs to be the senior person but not necessarily the person who attended. To me, it sounds reasonable that you would want to know who was there, and that would certainly increase transparency, in my opinion, but that law hasn't changed yet.
Conservative
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely. They are the ones making the act.
Conservative
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We have an eloquently prepared motion by Mr. Erskine-Smith for the end of this, recommending your nomination. It's not personal; it's the process. I'll be abstaining on it. It's a challenge for us as we try to actually have a good consultative process. There isn't one right now.
This is a personal question that you can choose not to answer. With the other watchdogs, officers of Parliament you have served with, would you name one who has been a mentor in the way they perform their duties as an officer of Parliament, somebody you have watched perform the role you may be taking on and whom you seek to emulate in the way you go about your business?
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I have worked with both Mary Dawson and Suzanne Legault. I think they are very different agents of Parliament, and I have learned from both of them. They both have taught me a lot, and I respect them both.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Scenarios are how I think about things in trying to understand the law—what activities are trying to be curbed and which ones are permitted.
Where I live, there are a number of fishing lodges, some of them very high-end. Six months ago, I got an invitation from a fellow who owns one of them to bring my kids fishing, which sounds pretty innocuous until you realize that a four-day fishing trip at his lodge for a family would literally be in the tens of thousands of dollars.
I said no. Then I contacted some of the offices and asked if this would be permitted. They said, “As long as you weren't lobbied.” I asked how I would know before going if the owner wanted to talk about fishing policy or federal involvement in his business. Until after the fact and until I had actually already accepted the gift—which I would have to declare, of course—how would I know?
I've never really understood the difference between accepting a gift like that and somebody just giving you money for the equivalent of the gift. Everyone would understand that it would be totally inappropriate if, instead of offering me a $20,000 fishing trip, someone just walked down, gave me $20,000, and said, “How 'bout those fish?”
Do you see the conundrum for some office-holders and the distinction that the public doesn't understand as to why it would be acceptable for me to have gone with my kids, with this vague notion of not getting lobbied and then everything being okay? How would you advise me?
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I likely wouldn't be advising you under the title of Commissioner of Lobbying. I think it's the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner that would be advising. I would be advising the lobbyists.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You would be advising the lobbyists if they were to offer such a gift.
December 6th, 2017 / 4:30 p.m.
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I would be advising the lobbyists and, quite frankly, I'm not prepared to go into a....
If you obtained advice in those conversations, then I would be giving it to the lobbyist, as the Commissioner of Lobbying.
Nominee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I will evaluate that if ever I am Commissioner of Lobbying. I'm sorry. I don't think I really should be getting into that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Thank you, Mr. Cullen. I know you had a lot more.
I just wanted to say, Ms. Bélanger, that you brought up the qualification of being a parent of teenagers, and I think that's probably one of your best credentials to do your job.
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
It was a good answer.
We have a motion before the committee that Mr. Erskine-Smith would like to bring forward at this time.