Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A video is available from Parliament.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
What year was it?
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
This was soon after you took office. This was after Madame Ouimet left. The Liberal chair of the committee was quite scathing about this interaction with a senior official. It was a heads-up. It was an email from you to him saying you would prepare to brief him, “to a PCO officer to ensure Wayne is not blind-sided.”
December 12th, 2017 / 4:30 p.m.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I have no recollection. I'm sorry.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
None whatsoever. I must have written hundreds of thousands of emails about the—
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I understand, but do you see my concern? As an integrity commissioner, giving a heads-up to somebody who might be falling under investigation so he's not blindsided would fall completely outside of your purview.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
The wording of the email that you just read would indicate that Mr. Wouters was not the subject. It was somebody else in the system who was the subject.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
It says, “...to make sure that Wayne is not blind-sided.”
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
But it was not about Wayne. It was about somebody else who reported to Wayne.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You were tipping off Wayne to make sure he knew that somebody in his staff was about to maybe fall under—
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
To give the clerk a chance to organize and respond, essentially, but I don't recall who it was or what it was.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Madam Fraser, as the Auditor General, pointed out that there were 228 cases that were not properly investigated. Of those, how many did you decide to investigate in the end?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Again, Mr. Cullen, I'd be pleased to provide the answer to the committee, but frankly, I do not remember how many we investigated.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Can you give a ballpark? Was it more than 100, less than 50?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I think I said, as part of my introductory remarks, that during my term at PSIC I oversaw 100 investigations. Some of them were pre-Ouimet and some of them arose after I was appointed.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You said earlier in testimony that people don't wake up with an intent to break the law. You're a trusting person.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I used to work in the Correctional Service, so there may be some exceptions.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Sure. My question is, what's intent got to do with it? I might not intend to speed, but if I speed, I'm breaking the law. The Prime Minister might not have intended to get on a private helicopter, but he did.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
No. All I was saying is that education is important because people want to do well, and if they do realize what the expectations are, it's less likely that they will inadvertently break the law. Inadvertently break the law...they try to avoid that.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I'm going to quote from the AG report again on your office:
The Public Sector Integrity Commissioner decided not to investigate the complainant’s reprisal file and decided to close it on 2 April 2013. As a result of internal delays, lack of management oversight, and related failures, the complainant had to wait...more than 18 months....
It concluded with:
...in the complainant’s statements that trust was lost in relation to PSIC’s process.
Do you agree with that finding from the Auditor General that trust was lost?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes, it was indeed. The complainant had lost trust.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You understand where I'm going.
I understand your difficult position in not wanting to fully commit to continuing the investigations, which I would—you read the papers, too—into the Prime Minister and the finance minister of Canada. You don't get higher than that.
In your previous role, there were challenges in continuing certain investigations. We have this process that you applied to in the middle of August, you had a one-hour interview in November, and the committee gets seven minutes to hire you for a seven-year position.
I guess what is hard for me to determine, because it's not possible in this interaction, is this: Are you tough? Are you fair? Are you a dog with a bone? Would you describe yourself as somebody who pursues it to the end to make sure that it happens? That's the confidence that we need.
Conservative
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I'll give a very brief, final answer.
I tabled 10 reports while I was at public sector integrity. Some of them were very tough, and I did not give up. We went to court in some instances to retain the ability to go forward with the investigation and the tabling of the report, and I'd be pleased to say more. Some of these reports were hard fought, and I believe that abiding by the law is very important, and the resources should be used on those cases where it really matters. That's essentially what I was saying earlier, as well.
The two cases that the Auditor General investigated were not, I can assure you, in the global scheme of things, very important matters to start with, unlike the matters that you have been talking about.
