Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A video is available from Parliament.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes, the expression “gross mismanagement” is one that's defined in the act, and his view was that it did constitute gross mismanagement. I don't necessarily agree with his decision that it fits the definition.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You don't agree with the assessment from the Auditor General.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Because gross mismanagement is.... Most statutes leave room for interpretation, but it doesn't matter what I think. The Auditor General made the decision that it fit the definition, and I respect that.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I don't. I still don't, and I didn't at the time, and I told him so.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I'm also quoting:
On the basis of the information gathered during this investigation, we concluded that the...Commissioner committed wrongdoings as defined in subsections 8(a) and (c) of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.
Do you agree with that finding?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
In other words, it was delaying a decision, ensuring that the PSIC managers understood and followed through on their responsibilities, and not having a process in place to manage declared conflicts of interest.
I want to underline that last part a little bit. You're applying to be the conflict of interest commissioner.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
At the time, the PSIC office did not have a written policy on conflict of interest.
NDP
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
That's correct, but it wasn't really three years, because the report was tabled in April, but it took them a year to conduct the investigation. It described matters that arose a year before that.
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Okay, but you'd been in the position.... I'm just doing the sequence of time to understand. I know AG reports sometimes cast further back, but this AG report and this particular criticism of not having that policy on conflict of interest written down was at least for the two years—not three years, but two years for certain—under your watch.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
We did not have a policy, although the general policies, of course, applicable to the public sector were there and did exist.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Okay. In an earlier response to a question about continuing the investigations, you were not definitive. You said essentially—and I don't want to put words in your mouth—that you wanted to look at the evidence that Ms. Dawson had accumulated on the investigations under which Mr. Morneau, the finance minister, and Mr. Trudeau, the Prime Minister, are right now. Is that—
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I think it would be my responsibility, if I were appointed as the new commissioner, to review the whole situation.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Ms. Dawson and others have argued that the act needs to be fixed and not left to the discretion of a new appointee coming in, and that as in a court—as you as a jurist know—any judge coming in midway through a case would be committed to following through on the case. Yet for this commissioner, you have the discretion. It's in your power, and you're not able or willing to commit to following through on these investigations.
Do you think the act needs to be fixed to ensure that investigations continue, regardless?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I frankly don't have a view at this point in time, because I have not studied in depth everything that has to do with the act. I know that Commissioner Dawson has made several recommendations for amendments. That's—
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
No.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Let me ask you about another recommendation Ms. Dawson has made, because you're applying to be her replacement. She has suggested that the conflict of interest be expanded to include entities, so-called numbered companies, that can receive benefit from a member but that don't fall under the act because they exist as an “entity under Canadian law”, even though all the benefits might flow to that member.
Do you agree with that recommendation?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
You know, based on my knowledge of Ms. Dawson, I would agree prima facie with the recommendation, because she is very effective, so if she made that recommendation, it most probably makes sense. However, I would like to see the foundation upon which it was based.
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Let me ask you about a scenario of conflict of interest.
I have seven minutes to decide whether or not we should hire you. It's a strange scenario. When I'm hiring somebody, I like to give them scenarios to see how they would judge things.
It's a scenario in which the person who is in charge of the hiring process for a new Ethics Commissioner is the same person who is publicly defending the Prime Minister and the finance minister, who are under an ethics investigation. Do you see any potential conflict of interest in the scenario I just described?
Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
There was a balance on the selection board that I met. You mentioned most of the people who were there. There was a balance.
Of course, as a candidate, I am not responsible for how the selection board is constituted.