Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 12th, 2017

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I understand.

When you say “balance”, the law requires consultation with the other parties. None of the other parties were involved in the selection board process. The person who made that board is the House leader for the government and is the same person who is publicly defending the Prime Minister and the finance minister on an ethics investigation. She is also in charge of the process of finding a new Ethics Commissioner.

Would that raise any conflict of interest flags for you?

[Mario Dion]

What I can assure the member, Mr. Chairperson, is that if I am appointed as the Ethics Commissioner, I will feel completely independent. I have had several positions in which independence was an important trademark, and I can assure you that in making decisions and in conducting the affairs of the office, I would have complete independence of mind, to the extent that—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

What we're trying to find, and it's difficult to determine in such a short time, is your conflict of interest compass, your ethical compass on these questions. Assurance that the investigations that have been ongoing for months will continue would greatly reassure me and I think a great number of Canadians, and would be an assurance of that strong voice and independence.

Hopefully I can get through another round and ask some questions about that period as Integrity Commissioner.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Up for seven minutes is Mr. Erskine-Smith.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thanks very much.

You've had a number of different appointments over your long career in the public service. Why did you apply for the Ethics Commissioner in particular?

[Mario Dion]

The opportunity to apply for the Ethics Commissioner arises very infrequently. It can be seven years minimum, and it can be much longer than seven years. You can see from my CV that I would probably not be available 15 years from now when the second Ethics Commissioner might retire. That's one factor.

Another is the importance of the position. I was talking about institutions that are there to protect Canada's democracy. I have a deep interest in that, in playing that role in each individual case I would be dealing with, and that has a lot of appeal to me. That's the second reason.

I have done 11 years at the Department of Justice, where I had to make hundreds of decisions of a much smaller but similar nature whenever employees and people associated with the Department of Justice were seeking permission to do something.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Cullen understood your assurance to be that you wouldn't necessarily be proceeding with the investigations. I understood it differently in your answer to Mr. Kent. I understood you to say that you would review every existing case in the office and on its merits determine whether you would proceed with the investigation. Is that fair?

[Mario Dion]

That's fair. In fact, I will go a bit further. Of course, I will not make any arbitrary, completely unreasonable decisions to discontinue anything for no reason. It would be following an analysis, and I will determine whether it continues and how it continues.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

You have been appointed on previous occasions by Conservative governments. It's especially important that this role be non-partisan, of all things. Is there anything in your past record that would in any way preclude or affect your ability to hold this government or any future government to account?

[Mario Dion]

In fact, I have been an order in council appointee since 1995. I have been appointed seven times. It's about half and half, Conservatives and Liberals.

I've never had any political activity. I've never held a card of any party. I jokingly say to people that I don't necessarily vote the same way each time there is an election.

I don't think there is anything impeding my objectivity vis-à-vis political parties.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

You said that you applied online in late summer.

[Mario Dion]

Yes, it was August 18.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

You had previously applied for and held any number of positions in the public service. In your experience, were these positions in the past publicly posted in the same way?

[Mario Dion]

No, they were not. I was usually approached by somebody to consider it, and there was an interview. There were assessments, if you wish, but it was not a public, open process.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Not like this one....

You received a call in mid-November, and you were interviewed. How long was that interview?

[Mario Dion]

It was about an hour.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Were there any follow-ups to that interview?

[Mario Dion]

Of course, I had done psychometric testing previously, so some of the testing had to be redone. I also redid my English proficiency test. I had been exempted in 1985 and I couldn't find the document, so I passed again within 17 minutes. I was pleased about that.

There was no other meeting following the selection board. There was no meeting with anyone for the purpose of determining whether my candidacy would be put forward.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

You mentioned that you are most proud of the accomplishment in relation to residential schools and what led to the 2006 historic agreement with respect to residential schools. It strikes me as an incredibly important accomplishment.

My colleague Mr. Saini asked whether you learned anything, but I will be more specific. Everyone has failures. Were there failures along the way that you have learned from? Obviously, your most significant achievement was about residential schools, but would you point to other experiences where you would say, “I have learned from this and I'll improve going forward”?

[Mario Dion]

Yes. I was involved in program review exercises under the Martin government, the Chrétien government, and the Harper government. I found those exercises very difficult, very imprecise, and very dangerous, because we were essentially shooting for a target and we had little time to make decisions. Sometimes we recommended to government certain things that did not prove to be the best thing with the passage of time. That's one example that strikes me. I'm not the only one, of course, who has done that in government. Hundreds of us have had to do that.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sure.

I have a last question. Ms. Dawson has made certain recommendations that this committee has agreed to look at in the new year. Obviously, you've not been fully briefed by Ms. Dawson; you're still the nominee.

We had agreed to come back at the end of January or early February to discuss her 2013 recommendations, and I would expect, have Ms. Dawson before us. If you are in fact the new commissioner it would be useful to have you before us as well.

Will you have sufficient time over December and January to be briefed and come to your own views on those 2013 recommendations?

[Mario Dion]

I think I'm a quick study. The minute I'm appointed, if I am appointed, I'll be touch with Ms. Dawson. I'll be ready.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

If we invite you at the end of January or early February, you'll be ready?

[Mario Dion]

Yes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

All right.

Thanks very much.