Information & Ethics Committee on Jan. 10th, 2018

[Mary Dawson]

There is a difference between new parliamentarians and public office holders. In both cases, however, my office has always encouraged everyone to ask questions. There is an adviser that all parliamentarians and all public office holders can call at any time to ask questions. In some cases, the questions are addressed to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I was always available to meet with anyone who wanted to meet with me.

My suggestion is simply to ask questions if you encounter a problem. You can also read the guides, as they contain several guidelines. I would suggest that you ask questions of an adviser; it's quite easy.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So, there are already several measures in place.

In the context of the upcoming review of the act, we should perhaps suggest some new measures, or propose changes to certain measures. Is there anything you would like to suggest in the context of this exercise?

[Mary Dawson]

No, not in this context. If I had a problem, I would try to resolve it. However, at this moment, I can't think of any particular problem.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Fine.

I've asked all of my questions.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier.

The last questioning in this round is three minutes to Mr. Cullen.

Just for everybody's information, we're going to suspend briefly for a bathroom break and to grab a coffee, and then we'll come back. After Mr. Cullen's questioning, we'll have that break.

Go ahead, Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We're almost through the first half.

Let's pop back to this “friend” exception. If someone gave a gift that contravened the act and they weren't a friend, that's a problem, but there's this loophole that if they were a close friend, it would be okay, even if that friend has dealings with the government, under the act as it is right now.

[Mary Dawson]

That's where there's some confusion. If it was obviously the case that they shouldn't be giving a gift.... We've had some cases sometimes of the gift being sent to an office, as opposed to being given under the Christmas tree. You have to look at the circumstances in which the gift is given as well.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Of course. I'm trying to look at this through the eyes of, as you said, the average Canadian who is seeing this and says, “Wait a second; if somebody who's lobbying the government, lobbying a minister, lobbying the Prime Minister, is a friend, there might be some sort of exclusion for that activity if they give them a nice gift—if they buy them a nice watch or whatever.”

You say it's if it's an egregious case, but the reason it's a concern is that the Prime Minister, in your report, attempted to use this exception to say this was all okay, that somebody he hadn't had any contact with for 30 years, since the age of 13 until the time he became leader of a federal party, whom he saw at his dad's funeral....

[Mary Dawson]

I actually found it didn't fit within the definition of “friend”.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But even the attempt to use that definition to make the trip exceptional is—

[Mary Dawson]

The other side of the coin in this act is that when you're exercising your powers—you're going to a meeting, you're making a decision—that's when a friend is exactly on the other side of the coin. They're excluded.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's right, which would have been a problem for Trudeau in a different way. If you had accepted the friend thing, he went to two meetings in which the Aga Khan's interests were involved—

[Mary Dawson]

Yes. One way or another, there was going to be a problem.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

One way or another, there was going to be a problem.

[Mary Dawson]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

This whole thing, the trip and then the follow-up meetings about the Aga Khan Foundation, if you had accepted the friend argument—

[Mary Dawson]

That's right. I would have had a problem on the other side.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Right, so there were only versions of losing in this situation.

[Mary Dawson]

Right.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

Can I just circle back for a moment? In your report, you said initially it was the Trudeau family that contacted the Aga Khan's daughter, I believe, for the March 2016 trip. Is that...?

[Mary Dawson]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's what you said in your report, anyway—

[Mary Dawson]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

—but we don't know who asked for the second trip, the trip that has been the attention of “The Trudeau Report”.

[Mary Dawson]

No.