Evidence of meeting #86 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was friend.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, I think it's unfortunate. I don't know if I'm going to say “surprised”.
Some of these rules are not easy, and it's a question of getting your mindset into them. What can I say? I wouldn't say I was surprised.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
You've reminded us today that the penalties at the commissioner's disposal are symbolic and rather small. They're meant to, as you said—
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
They're meant so you can get your reports in on time, basically.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Right, but you said publicity and the prospect of re-election would be considerations that anyone considering violation, knowingly or unknowingly....
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
Actually I'd like them to do it just because it is the right thing to do, but those are the two things that I could see falling out.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
You have said you don't believe there should be stiffer penalties for violation of the act. This is an unusual violation in the sense that for this improper vacation, the four violations you found associated with the decisions and the actual vacation itself generated almost $250,000 in costs to the Canadian taxpayer in security, in staff, in technology, for friends and camp followers, if you will, taking part in this unauthorized vacation. Do you not see that there is some sort of moral, if not ethical, obligation to repay beyond the mere payment of the equivalent of commercial airfares?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
If the Prime Minister had gone somewhere else on his own initiative, and it wasn't with a problematic person—not that the Aga Khan is problematic—or in a problematic situation, a lot of those costs would have been incurred anyway.
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
The security costs are huge, I think. Actually, that's not my bailiwick at all. That was not my bailiwick. That is PCO or whoever pays that money. There's a whole establishment there that looks after the Prime Minister's security, and that expense is incurred whatever he does.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
I would just say that many suggest that on personal vacations, particularly problematic personal vacations, there should perhaps be a better exercise of judgment with regard to the amount of costs.
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
By the same token, he shouldn't be a prisoner. Even if you're a senior politician, you should be able to have a holiday occasionally.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Absolutely. There's no argument with that. I'm sure Canadians enjoyed observing his holiday in British Columbia from a distance this past couple of weeks.
I have one other question. What are the requirements for a former member who benefits from a gift such as the Aga Khan vacation and who becomes a public office holder? Should that person record on the registry the fact that benefit was received from, in this case—?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
A rule of thumb is that we sort of generally look upon something that happened a year or two ago as long enough ago, but it depends a little bit. In other words, if you got a gift from somebody five years ago and then you became an MP, I don't think it's going to be a problem that you have to report.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
But if a member a year ago on that vacation is now a public office holder, a minister, should he, in the—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
—instance of transparency, make that record and say that he will recuse himself from any involvement, perhaps, with the Aga Khan's organizations?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
I think you're hitting a limit of one year, which is kind of where you have to think about it a little bit. That's kind of where we would look at it, I think, but you don't have to report something that you did when you were not a public office holder. You maybe should be cognizant of it if three months before you became somebody or other you had a meeting or you had a situation where you were making a decision. Then you should recuse, but it depends on the time and the whatever.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Dawson, I too will ask you questions in French, but please feel perfectly comfortable answering in the language of your choice.
First, I would like to thank you for the co-operation I have received from your office since I was elected, last year. I know that you receive many requests, because many things are left open to interpretation. When you are a new MP, you have to be very careful. Your office always answered all my queries fully, and I thank you.
In my opinion, your report is complete, so I won't necessarily ask questions on its content. And my colleagues have already asked some. I would instead like to hear a bit more about the context of assessments.
Your inquiry took place over a period of 11 months. We are nearing the end of the fiscal year. Do you think that in future inquiries similar to the one you've just carried out, certain steps or questions should be added to the process?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
No, I think the process we have is a good one. I don't have anything to recommend in that regard for the moment.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
The context is that there is going to be a review of the Conflict of Interest Act. In light of the exercise you've just been through in the past 11 months, would you have any recommendations to make regarding the review of the act? The definition of friendship was discussed. There may be other definitions that need to be revised, for instance the ones regarding decisions, or the exercise of a public office.
Do you have any suggestions to make regarding the review of the act?
Noon
As an Individual
I have no suggestions to make for the time being. I did not think of these things before coming here.
Noon
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Following an exercise like this one, is there anything you would like to propose, or that you feel we should discuss?
Noon
As an Individual
No. Basically, I don't think this inquiry differed from other inquiries I've conducted. I followed the same process. It was not a special investigation, aside from the person concerned, perhaps.
Noon
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Thank you.
I'd like to go back to my position as a new member of Parliament. In your report, you mentioned that public office holders should cease cultivating friendships with people they may have to work with. For senior public service officials, this could mean that they would have to do this for several years.
If I became a public office holder and had the privilege of remaining in that position for many years, what would you recommend concerning the management of my new friendships or of those I might have, in the context of that office? From that perspective, would you have any recommendations to make to parliamentarians?
