Evidence of meeting #86 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was friend.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
As my grandma used to say, “Never waste a good crisis.” If something shows up that causes you pain, pay attention.
As an Individual
Yes, and that's probably the best benefit of one of these reports: it enhances the understanding of the rules.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
In your time up until last year, is it right to say you did about 253 investigations? Would that sound like the number?
As an Individual
Oh, I don't know. We also open many, many files on which we don't proceed to an investigation.
As an Individual
In my report, I give the numbers and I give a general explanation of what sort of thing something was. I don't release the names, because I didn't feel that it was worthy of an investigation.
Sometimes I take some time to look...or I did. I'm sorry; I'm talking in the present.
As an Individual
I looked into the circumstances behind it, even if it came in from a private citizen or from the media. If I saw it in the media or if somebody told me about something, we would follow up to see whether we thought there was anything to it—
Conservative
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Dawson, as you explained earlier...
January 10th, 2018 / 12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Hold on. I'll talk to the clerk for a second.
Just to clarify, the way it was written down in order was different from the typical structure, so we'll go next to Mr. Picard.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm sorry, but we still have seven minutes to spend together.
You said to Mr. Cullen that such a report made it easier to understand the current rules. So it may be normal and natural to conclude that these rules may still be open to interpretation and give rise to some confusion. That is precisely the type of situation that makes it possible to review certain aspects of the rules. The conclusion is that a situation like this one, from the ethical standpoint in any case, is still open to interpretation.
Have I understood your comment correctly?
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
With regard to the application of the current rules, it is thus inevitable that all of the parties involved, your office as well as all of the other parties involved in the events, must assume their duty of interpretation and apply the rules to the best of their ability, in the most adequate way possible, in good faith and in keeping with the spirit of the law.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
You have the same understanding of everyone's actions, that is to say that everyone normally acts in good faith, rather than doing everything in their power to bypass the current rules.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
During the first five or ten minutes of the meeting, you agreed that the Prime Minister had promptly apologized, and that in your eyes that was the right thing to do, and the only thing to do under the circumstances. You stated that now that the report had been published and that we had a better understanding of the details of these specific events, we could move things forward, and that there should not be any follow-up to the publication of your report, nor consequences.
Is that correct?
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Will the report you published simply remind everyone that it is essential, in the name of caution, to be zealous in sharing any potential conflict with the Office of the Commissioner, even if the situation seems very clear, so that everyone is protected? This should not, however, make the task of the office more cumbersome. In fact I imagine that the office receives several requests a week.
In your opinion, was the report developed to such a degree as to make an in-depth review of the current Conflict of Interest Act necessary?
As an Individual
No, not any more than the proposals I've made to date. I don't think this report is a seminal change in the way we see the legislation. It's a specific case that was interpreted under the rules in the act, but I don't think much of anything new flows from it.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
In light of the ethics rules we must respect in our work as members, it is as though we, from one day to the next, suddenly had no lives. I am exaggerating, but I'll put the expression in quotes. We can no longer speak to the people we know in the same way. During a friendly encounter, if the conversation turns to a work topic, we are dismayed, because we have to tell the person we are speaking to that he has to send us a bill if he wants us to continue the conversation, because the topic has gone beyond the friendly boundaries that defined the encounter in the beginning.
For you, the challenge is to look at things on a case-by-case basis and to do a subjective assessment of the facts that are submitted to you. For their part, the MPs feel they can no longer speak to anyone, for fear that a conversation, innocuous in the beginning, could evolve and put them in a compromising position, and that that meeting be misinterpreted.
As an Individual
We have many guidelines that we've put out—advisories and such—and when we see problems, we have tried to give advice in a general way and to be as specific as we can, but there is a balance there. Sometimes you don't foresee the thing that's going to come up and you haven't examined every single instance that could happen.
While I'm here, another thing, again under the code, is that the office does not have the power to establish guidelines without going through the procedures committee. This is the wrong committee to be telling this to—