Evidence of meeting #90 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gift.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Commissioner, it's very appreciated that you're here and providing this overview and advice.
I had a couple of questions. You talked about mandatory training, and I think that's a very good idea, but as a member of a caucus I am very familiar with the term “herding cats”. I wondered, have any of the caucuses asked that you come and provide the briefings and the training that you're talking about?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In the past—and maybe Ms. Robinson-Dalpé can answer—there have been such briefings.
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In the past, after an election, we always reached out to caucuses to offer training to their members, and some of them did accept the invitation. We do go and make a presentation. Others decline. It's up to the caucuses to make that determination. For public office holders, we do not have such formal training organized. Therefore, while a public office holder will always have an initial call with someone in the office, with an adviser going through their obligations under the act, they will not have ongoing training unless groups of them ask us to make presentations. That would be a slight difference there.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We've recently written to the chair of each caucus to make the offer again, to go and make a presentation to members of each of the three caucuses.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
You said that the act doesn't discuss the furthering of private interest. I'm quite surprised by that because I would have thought that to be the heart of it, the whole issue of serving not for a personal benefit but serving for the benefit of the wider community.... Can you comment on that, because it seems to me paramount to the integrity of an office-holder.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The difficulty is that the code and the act have very different conceptions of what is prohibited. The notion of conflict of interest is quite different under the code as compared with the act.
Martine Richard Senior General Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Under the act there is no definition of private interest, but we do have what is not considered to be of private interest. That's found in the definitions section:
private interest does not include an interest in a decision or matter (a) that is of general application; (b) that affects a public office holder as one of a broad class
We have that identical provision in the code. However, in the code we have what is considered a private interest, and it's mostly a pecuniary interest. We don't have the definition in the act that we have in the code.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Would it not make sense to make sure it was there? If I am in a position of power and I decide to create a situation that my colleagues in the private sector would benefit from, I would think that would be of profound concern.
February 8th, 2018 / 9:15 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It may well be another example of something that needs to be harmonized between the code and the act. They were developed at different times by different people, in 2004 and 2006. One was developed by the House and its committee, and the other one was developed by the government as part of Bill C-1, I believe, back in 2006.
That's why there are differences like that. I don't fully understand yet the foundation for those differences, because I haven't had time to really study it.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Once you do that study, would you be prepared to make recommendations in regard to how to make it function in a logical, fair, and consistent way?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Insofar as the code is concerned, of course, I would have to go to a different committee of the House.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Yes.
I wondered too about the issue around the definition of a friend. That seems to me to be a rather sticky thing. It's a judgment. Is that something that concerns you, inasmuch as you have to make that judgment?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As I was saying earlier, I believe that one clear, easy possibility would be to abolish the exemption so that we don't have to figure out, for the purposes of gifts, what a friend is. Who is a friend, who isn't a friend? It's too subjective and it's not currently defined in any way, shape, or form.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Okay.
You also talked about confidentiality. It's very, very important, but sometimes the media get a hold of something. How on earth would you manage the media if they were breaking that confidentiality rule? Is it possible?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Anything is possible in a statute, but it has to be carefully looked at. You could actually prohibit the media from broadcasting. It may be legal. It may not be constitutional. It has to be looked at, basically. Freedom of expression, freedom of the press—is it sufficiently important to justify an exception under section 1 of the charter? That would have to be looked at by the Department of Justice. Conceivably it could be done.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
I applaud you, because it seemed to me that it would be rather muddy in regard to freedom of the press and the fact that things leak—and we thrive on that in this place.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Especially with today's technology, it takes a few seconds before everybody knows about something.
Liberal
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Good morning.
Thank you very much for being here.
Mr. Dion, we met before the holidays. You had already begun to tell us about your vision and how you would like to leave your mark. I see that you have already started to do your homework. Although you've been in office for less than a month, you've already put forward some parts of the act that you would like to study.
How will you proceed to conduct your study? I know you've already started doing that, but I'd like to know what process you are going to undertake. Will you model it on an existing approach?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think the appropriate way to proceed is through a committee like this one, where we are discussing possible changes to the act. My role as an officer of Parliament is to recommend amendments to the House of Commons that we might want to consider. These are things that I recommend from my point of view as a commissioner. This is not the absolute truth; it corresponds to my point of view as a person who has to implement the act.
My feeling is that there is currently a certain thirst for change. That's why I'm going to prepare something. I will have it in the bank the day I am asked to provide a thorough description of all the possible amendments that I might want to put forward to improve the administration and the effectiveness of the act.
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Are there some best practices—in Canada or elsewhere in the world—that you would like to draw inspiration from, or is our country already ahead of others?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's a bit early for me to make a judgment about it. We are certainly not at the bottom of the pack. Are we really number one? I just don't know. My office has relatively limited resources to conduct analyses that compare our country with others. We have a part-time officer who spends some of his time doing that kind of thing. I haven't yet had the opportunity to verify what could inspire us, be it in the United States, Great Britain, Australia or elsewhere.
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
You have opened a door with respect to resources. That was actually part of my questions.
Now that you have seen what resources you have, do you think you have the human resources or budget to do your job, be it studying the act or something else?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We seem to have the resources right now. Of course, if we start doing totally new things or doing much more work, for example in education, I may need to indicate a need for additional resources. However, as things stand, we can do what we need to with the resources we have.
