Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 8th, 2018

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Sometimes the political realities make it very difficult for MPs or provincial members. I've seen that first-hand in terms of someone who unintentionally offered advice and then was skewered for it. She lost her job, actually, because of it.

I also wanted to ask about the whole issue of fundraising. It gets to be very difficult, because we live and die by our ability to fundraise. Cash-for-access has come up as well in the last couple of years. I wondered if you could comment on that very tricky area because, again, we're into appearances, where what seems to be and what is may be different.

[Mario Dion]

The office published an information notice 18 months or so ago on the subject matter you're talking about, honourable member, at the time the phenomenon was happening.

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

Yes.

[Mario Dion]

You may wish to reread it again, because it was given some serious thought, and Madam Dawson has signed something on the subject.

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

As well, in “Open and Accountable Government”, there are some very clear guidelines there for fundraising for ministers and parliamentary secretaries, which were added as well.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Once again, yes, those guidelines do exist, but it does get murky in terms of perception and the appearance of conflict.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Nathaniel Erskine-Smith]

That ends our total round.

Mr. Baylis has some questions and I have a few questions, so we'll extend it a bit beyond the hour.

Mr. Baylis.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I just want to understand something.

This is about gifts. You talked about $25 or $50. What was the background? As I understand it, at the moment, we have to declare any gift valued at more than $200. Is that the case?

[Mario Dion]

At the moment, the act prohibits you from accepting a gift that could be seen as an intent to influence you in making a decision, in the way you are going to vote, for example. That is what is prohibited, no matter the value of the gift.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

It is prohibited, whether it is $50 or $1, right?

[Mario Dion]

It could even be $3. Really, the amount is not important. The objective is to prohibit gifts that might lead to the impression that it was given in order to influence you.

That said, one gift or a number of gifts from the same source, with a value of $200 or more, for example, if someone gives you a gift eight times—

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Whether or not the gifts are intended to influence you, we have to declare them if they are valued at more than $200. Is that correct?

[Mario Dion]

Yes. It must be declared so that the general public, and the media, of course, know that you are receiving gifts with a value greater than $200, be it one gift or several gifts from the same source.

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

And acceptable.

[Martine Richard]

The gift must be acceptable. The declaration requires it to be acceptable.

[Mario Dion]

That means that it must clearly be a gift that was not given to you in order to influence you.

If a gift has a value greater than $1,000, a provision in the act says that it will be automatically forfeited. When you declare a gift valued at more than $1,000, it is forfeited if it is possible to do so. Clearly, in the case of a meal, forfeiture is not possible.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I want to make sure I understand. You are saying that, if I suspect that I have been given a gift in order to influence me, and it is worth $10, in theory I have to declare it. is that correct?

[Mario Dion]

What is the value of the gift?

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

If I receive a gift valued at $10, and I suspect that it was given in order to influence me—

[Mario Dion]

You have to decline it and return it. You do not have to declare it.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I must not accept any gift if the goal was to influence me, even if it is only a matter of $10. Is that correct?

[Mario Dion]

Exactly.

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

Yes.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I once had a problem of that nature. Before I became a politician, I was in the medical equipment business. The United States had some problems with gifts: some people were trying to influence doctors to buy their products. The problem became so bad that, even if I wanted to give someone a coffee mug with my name on it, with the sole intent of promoting my company, the doctor was not able to accept it.

It still frightens me. I find it ridiculous that someone could try to influence me with a ten-dollar gift. I will not speak for all my colleagues, but I am almost certain that not one of them would feel influenced by being given a ten-dollar gift, even a fifty-dollar one. No one would think that it would influence a vote, for example.

When we establish a code of ethics like this, the challenge is to be reasonable.

[Mario Dion]

That is why Ms. Dawson suggested a limit of $30. It means that, if the value is less, you no longer ask yourself the question.