Evidence of meeting #97 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was identity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerry Fishenden  Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

9:35 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

I take your point about everything being in one place. Everything keeps coming back almost to Facebook and Cambridge Analytica at the moment, because it's a great example of what happens when somebody gets access to all of your data in one place, impacting not only you but potentially your whole circle of acquaintances as well.

When I look at the Estonia model, I think you could take what they've done together with what your colleague was talking about, which is looking at how you put citizens in control of a particular method of proving identity and then enabling them to link back to their other pockets of services and data so they become the trusted pivot point. A lot of this is about trust and about citizens trusting not only the intent of government but also the technology. I do worry that the more they see what some in the private sector are doing with technology, the more they will worry about government's intent in using data.

The other thing is the government's appetite for risk. If we look at how things are currently done in the paper world or have been done in the paper world, and the level of risk and the risk mitigation that was done there, we might then ask if we are sometimes expecting too much of technology, or overloading it, because we think it can do a better job.

In the past, whenever I signed the document for the tax office, it always amused me that they obviously never asked me for a copy of my signature when I first started doing tax, so quite what my signing a document proved to them I don't know. However, when we moved to the digital domain, suddenly people talked about digital signatures or electronic signatures. That may be appropriate depending on the financial risk or exposure of a government department, but there may be many services for which the appropriate risk model would be to say that we understand the risks and we have appropriate mechanisms for dealing with them that don't require the very highest level of citizen identity to be used.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you.

Thank you, Ziad.

Next up is Ms. Fortier. You have five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you very much.

Good morning. I thank you for being here today.

You had already begun to address the topic of cyber attacks. I would like to know if the British model currently prevents cyber attacks? Does it deal with specific security issues you could share?

9:35 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

Thank you.

It's difficult to know how much I can say on the cyber-attacks. Government departments are under constant attack by automated bots and agents all the time. We've also had distributed denial of service attacks. We're constantly looking at ways to engineer our way around those.

We are fortunate that we have GCHQ and the National Cyber Security Centre, which are very capable in anticipating and warning against attacks as well as advising not only government but also business in the U.K. of potential mitigation. Also, if there is a cyber-attack or if something is compromised, they are very capable in advising on how to quickly recover from it so that it doesn't cause any lasting damage.

I'm finding it difficult to be specific. I suspect you might need a closed session with a representative from the National Cyber Security Centre in the U.K. I do know more; I'm just conscious, particularly in a personal capacity, of what is appropriate for me to share.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I understand, and I respect that. It was important to point it out. This concerns us at this time because it is a part of the analyses we are doing in view of transforming the system.

We are faced with the fact that the advent of digital government services is inevitable. Canadian men and women increasingly want digital services—if we understand the will to deal with the various governments properly. As we mentioned earlier, there are three levels of government the citizens may address, and they are the federal level, the provincial and territorial level and the municipal one. We have to take that complexity into account.

You have already shared various ideas with us, but one of the questions I want to ask you concerns the advice you could provide to the Government of Canada in its efforts to digitize its services. Do you have any other advice to give us this morning?

9:40 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

Thank you.

I think that goes back to the first question of my opening statement: what are you trying to achieve by going digital? Is it purely moving more services online and effectively still operating in a forms world, where it's not paper forms anymore but forms on a computer screen, or is it about looking at how the operating model of government itself can be improved to enable services to be redesigned, really?

If we have better data in government, why do we ask citizens to constantly tell us something that government already knows, such as where we live, how much we're earning, how many children we have, and whether we're married? Why don't we move much more to data-driven services and push services to people, rather than asking people to fill in forms all the time?

I'm aware that the focus seems to have gone at my end....

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Over the next 20 or 30 years, digitization will be inevitable. We're talking about a transformation. We have to be able to provide services to Canadians more quickly and in a secure manner. We have studied models that exist in Europe, such as in Estonia, as well as in Australia.

What would be the most important piece of advice you could give us, since we really have to undertake this transformation?

9:40 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

I think that in an ideal world I would take the time to step back and ask, “How do we want our public services to be working and engaging with citizens in the next five to 10 years?” I would be just taking the time to look at everything that's going on.

I've mentioned that people are going to be wearing more monitoring devices in health and that the Internet of things is going to be in people's homes more and constantly interacting with them. There's going to be a whole series of changes coming. I worry that government will always be behind the curve. If today it's still thinking about moving things onto websites just as the rest of the world is moving to the Internet of things and devices, the whole world will have moved on again just as government manages to catch up with the web.

I think there's an opportunity to look back. We have a very similar problem in the U.K. between central government and local government, and we have multiple tiers of administration. There is an enormous opportunity to take a lot of the complexity out of the internal operations across both local and central government and to potentially put more resources back into front-line services.

My worry is that we talk too much about online services, rather than thinking about digital in terms of how government itself reorganizes and restructures its own operations to remove a lot of the complexity in process, function, and administration in order to simplify and streamline front-line services, whether they're delivered face to face or through a gadget of some kind. By making better use of technology within government itself, potentially there's an upside of enabling more resources to go towards the front-line services that maybe can't be automated.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thanks, Mr. Fishenden.

I'm going to ask the committee for a bit of indulgence. We're at our time right now, at 9:45, but there are still two people left to ask questions, and it's a great conversation. We did have some earlier time taken up with a motion or discussion. Is it okay if we go another 10 minutes and finish up the questions?

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

For at least another round.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Mr. Fishenden, are you able to stay for another 10 minutes?

9:45 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

Yes, of course.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

We'll proceed with Monsieur Picard.

Yes, Mr. Angus?

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Well, I'm open to this, but I want to know that we're going to get to the witness list and net neutrality, because we have to come out today with a decision for the witness list.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Yes, we will.

Go ahead, Monsieur Picard, for five minutes.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Thank you.

Good morning. My first question is very general and concerns transparency.

It seems that all of those who want modern procedures or a modern administration talk about the importance of government transparency. It is a “cliché” that no one defines specifically. If for reasons of transparency I obtain financial information from the Department of Finance, I could influence the market in an inappropriate way. Access to security information could facilitate terrorist acts.

In the search for greater transparency in a digital government, what is your understanding of what a transparent government should look like?

9:45 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

Thank you.

I think there are possibly several layers to that. One is the Estonian type of approach that we have mentioned, whereby citizens can at least see who has had access to or made use of their data. Then there is a bigger question about how much appetite government has to reveal much more financial data about its internal operations. You mentioned the possible threat that if it does so, people might try to effectively game the system and manipulate the market. On the other hand, it might enable us to get better insight into where the public sector is doing a very good job and where other parts of the public sector could follow a particular organization's model because it's been very financially efficient in the way it operates. It might also enable us to see where other parts of the public sector are not functioning so well and could work together to help improve those areas.

Also, in the computer age, there is a potential level of transparency about algorithms and processes. For example, regarding welfare calculations, does government keep those processes entirely within itself, or does it enable third parties to potentially run my financial affairs against a welfare calculation system? There could be big benefits to citizens if they could share their financial details with a financial adviser. If a financial adviser could model my circumstances against government rules and calculations, they might be able to determine whether I could apply for benefits or whether I'm due a tax rebate or something.

There are many levels of transparency. I think it's a good question, because I don't think that I've seen anyone answer the question. How open does this government want to be in the digital age in terms of the type of information it makes available? As well, how open does it make some of its systems to allow for others to potentially come along and help government innovate and improve upon its services?

March 27th, 2018 / 9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Let's compare our systems to the Estonian ones, for example. We praise the merits of extremely sophisticated systems that tend to guarantee that they are 100% safe or almost, and that the information provided is accurate, thanks to verifications and multiple cross-checks. Personally, I think that this is not a point that should be touted. It's the minimum we should expect given the current state of technology.

Systems are going to continue to evolve, but efficient systems currently exist that have the best safeguards in the world against external attacks. However, none of the presentations on effective digital systems, including those of the Estonian representatives who testified last week, spoke about the only uncontrollable risk: the human element. I don't have an answer to that one either. Systems are more and more complex, and the risk tends to come increasingly from the inside, and not from the outside. However, despite the development of sweeping technological procedures, no procedure has been raised or mentioned to deal with the risks posed by human resources.

9:50 a.m.

Technologist and Government Advisor, As an Individual

Dr. Jerry Fishenden

I agree that humans remain a weak point in many of these systems. I mentioned earlier some of the social engineering we've seen when very sensitive computer systems in the U.K. have been inappropriately accessed. While they do have protective monitoring on those systems that raises alerts when inappropriate access is made, the time delay between the access being made and the human being found, tracked down, and held to account has unfortunately been tragically slow on occasion, and I do mean literally “tragically slow” in at least one case.

The risk appetite comes back into this discussion, along with everything involved in the software engineering. How do we trust the code that a human being has written, all the way through the system to the operator of that system? Given that this can be a weak point, how do we ensure that as little unnecessary data as possible is displayed to users when they look at a screen in the future, instead of enabling them to bring up somebody's entire record on a single screen to look at all at once?

You're right that all those things should be looked at in designing these systems, but ultimately there's always going to be a risk in these systems. Where are you on that risk appetite, in terms of the cost and the mitigation you're prepared to take in different systems?

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Mr. Angus, you have two minutes to finish up.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It's okay.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thanks, everybody, for attending, and especially to Mr. Fishenden from the U.K. Thanks for your testimony. We look forward to more discussions in the future.

We'll suspend until we go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]