Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 27th, 2020

[Mario Dion]

Every time I meet someone who wishes to discuss an offer of employment under the act when they're still a public officeholder and they're planning their future, I invariably go through part 3 completely. I'm sure I did the same thing with Mr. MacNaughton, going through every section, including section 37, which was key in this case.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

While I would never second-guess you, I am sure that you were very thorough. I just wanted to clarify that.

When I read your order, I find it very interesting, because the order is against public figures speaking with Mr. MacNaughton, which I found interesting. The subject matter mentions that Rick Theis, who is one of the Prime Minister's key advisers, was involved in a discussion about the Centers for Disease Control in talking with other senior officials. It was all supposedly about COVID.

Palantir lists itself as a defence contractor. Were there discussions with the chief of the defence staff? What would that have to do with COVID? Are you aware that they were talking about COVID or other contracts?

[Mario Dion]

I'm not aware. When I say it's COVID-related, I mean the period and not the theme. The order itself should reflect it, but I cannot answer your question today. I simply don't remember.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, that's fair.

One thing I notice is that it seemed that doors were open in a very short time. He met with all the senior officials, but he never met with anyone from the health minister's office, which was surprising. If he was offering to do work pro bono for COVID, it's surprising that he didn't bother to meet with the health minister, but he was meeting with the chief of the defence staff and even up to the Deputy Prime Minister.

My sense of concern with Mr. MacNaughton is that this seems to be a disturbing pattern that we do not want to go back to, in which someone who is very powerful, who is connected to the Prime Minister, who worked as a lobbyist and who becomes a public office holder, walks right back in and is invited right into the Deputy Prime Minister's office.

How do we ensure that people comply with the law and do not abuse their political connections and the knowledge they developed while serving as ambassadors?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Dion, you'll have to save that answer for another member. Time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, for appearing before the committee.

We have had much debate in the committee over the last few weeks. The point was raised that we could not talk about certain issues because your investigation was ongoing.

Do you take into account the testimony that has been provided to committees on a matter that is ongoing or of interest to you? Do you follow the work of our committee? If you find something of interest, can you take it into consideration?

[Mario Dion]

We do follow the work of the committee very closely, since its core mandate is to study ethical issues. It is my committee, if I can put it that way. As far as the act is concerned, this is the committee I report to. We follow the work of this committee, and of other committees but to a lesser extent. We follow, for example, the work of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, which administers the Conflict of Interest Code for Members.

We take careful note of testimony, but we cannot use it directly as it is protected by the principle of parliamentary privilege. As I said earlier, we asked the Speaker for permission to use them and he referred us to the Standing Committee on Finance to seek that permission, which we did three days ago.

If something has been said before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, we will take the same steps with your committee.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[Mario Dion]

However, we cannot directly use what is said by a witness in our report. One of the fundamental differences is that, when I speak to a witness, the testimony of the witness is invariably under oath, which is not the case for witnesses appearing before a parliamentary committee.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dion. This will clarify some aspects of a broad discussion we had here in the committee.

Furthermore, a former member of Parliament left when the last election was held in 2019. He was reportedly awarded a contract of more than $200 million during the pandemic crisis.

Given the privileged information he had access to, can this be considered a conflict of interest?

[Mario Dion]

The difference between the code and the act is that, once a member of Parliament leaves their parliamentary functions, they are no longer subject to the code in any way.

You didn't refer to the member in question by name, but it was Mr. Baylis. As a former member of Parliament, he is no longer subject to the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons and was not subject to it when the contract was being discussed or awarded. Nevertheless, the contract was not concluded with him.

As far as the code is concerned, it simply does not apply to Mr. Baylis. We also looked at the public office holders who were involved in awarding the contract and we decided that, at this point, there are no reasonable grounds to believe that the act may have been breached.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

In the summer, back in August, the Clerk of the Privy Council appeared before the committee. In the course of our discussions pertaining to the WE Charity, I asked him where the idea to use the organization had come from and how the organization had gotten on the government's radar. He told us that it had been at the request of the Prime Minister's Office.

The day the Prime Minister made the public announcement regarding the Canada student service grant program, the WE Charity had already submitted its proposal and practically had the contract in the bag a few hours later.

I asked him how the WE Charity had gotten a hold of the information, and the Clerk of the Privy Council told us that the WE Charity people knew about it because they had been involved in developing the eligibility criteria for the program in conjunction with the people at the Privy Council and the Prime Minister's Office.

When an architect designs a bridge, is it normal to give the architect the contract to build the bridge as well?

[Mario Dion]

It's important to look at the situation and, above all, to have the real facts. I don't comment on hypothetical situations. Obviously, we examine the circumstances leading up to the awarding of the contract. I am sure you'll find our report to be an interesting read when it comes out next year.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Dion.

I'm going to give the rest of my time to my fellow member Chris Warkentin.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gourde. I will add 30 seconds to your next colleague.

We'll move on to Mr. Dong for five minutes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Dion, for being here today. It's my first time speaking to you in person or virtually.

First, could you clarify for members of this committee and folks who are watching right now if there is any indication that anything has been done by anyone in the public service, either the executive branch or elsewhere, or by members of this Parliament, that has prevented you from fully performing your work in this case?

[Mario Dion]

There is no indication whatsoever of anything like that at this juncture.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Dion, do you feel you have the full power to investigate issues on your own?

[Mario Dion]

Yes, I do. Until such time as I face a big obstacle, I'm perfectly happy with the powers I have now.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

You don't need a letter from the opposition to tell you which section to investigate or any suggestion like that, correct?

[Mario Dion]

No. In fact, it would be contrary to the law for me to even read your letter—at the committee, I mean.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

As a new member, I'm quite fortunate that thus far I have not required your service and that of your office, other than making the annual disclosure. I do know that for some of my colleagues it is a regular practice, a habit perhaps, to call your office for advice, mostly just as a matter of practice.

How is your advice being provided to members? Is it in writing, phone calls, emails, a website? How do you provide that advice?

[Mario Dion]

We never actually calculated the preferred mode of communication, but I have a very clear impression that it's email, followed by telephone, followed very distantly by letters. People don't like to write letters anymore. It's mostly email, which is good, because it's good to have a written trace of the advice we give you, and it's good for us to have a trace of what you told us when you sought the advice so we can both remember the same thing a year from now when something happens.