Evidence of meeting #12 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Thank you.
Conservative
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Madam Bélanger, thank you so much for coming.
In September, you stated that you'd begun a preliminary investigation into the WE issue. Is that investigation complete, or is it ongoing?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I cannot answer that question, unfortunately.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I understand. I was just wondering if it was set aside and there was no problem.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If I can clarify on that point. It would never be set aside without my reporting to Parliament at some point. I want the committee to know that I am very much aware of what's of interest to you, and when I'm able to report to Parliament on these issues, I will.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you for that clarification.
For many of us who got involved in the investigation, it was quite the surprise. The extent of the WE group, the multiple corporate entities and the complexity of their organization certainly took me aback. I thought they just did stuff with kids, but it's very organized.
The Kielburger brothers have really specific interpretations of the Lobbying Act. They said that because a good percentage of their income didn't come from government contracts, they didn't need to register. Is there a financial threshold in the Lobbying Act at which they could have avoided registering?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
No, there is no registration threshold. The act is written in such a way that you have to be a paid employee or a paid consultant, and you have to be communicating on behalf of your employer. Therefore, there is no threshold with respect to salary. If someone is clearly a volunteer for an organization, then they don't need to register.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
That was the second reason. Craig Kielburger contacts Bill Morneau on April 10 and says, “Hey, Bill. I hope you, Nancy, Henry, Clare, Edward and Grace are enjoying some well-deserved down time”, and then begins to negotiate a $12-million deal. There are multiple meetings, and Craig Kielburger is the key person. He says that he doesn't need to register because he's just a volunteer.
He's the founder. They can fire their board of directors. WE is a very complex corporate structure. We don't know how they get paid. Would it be reasonable to assume that he was just volunteering like any volunteer—just helping out—as opposed to someone who's actually playing a key role in getting these contracts? Would that be considered lobbying?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If someone is being paid by somebody, and the organization that is paying them may benefit from the lobbying, I would consider that to be someone who needs to register.
I'm very much aware of the facts that you're raising and I would prefer leaving it at that for now.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I totally understand because, again, we're trying to find out through all these corporate structures who actually pays the Kielburgers. There's a lot of money going through.
Sofia Marquez is listed as their director of government relations. That seemed to me to be something that would be considered a standard lobbyist. They said she didn't do enough work to cover that, but in January of 2020 they were hiring a manager of government relations.
Would you consider an organization that has two people dedicated to government relations to be involved in lobbying, hypothetically?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
With respect to any organization that has anyone doing government relations, we would have to look at the number of communications they have had, the number of oral and arranged meetings that have occurred, and how many presentations they have done to calculate whether or not they meet the threshold. Someone who's full-time and communicating every day possibly—likely—meets the threshold, but it's looked at on a case-by-case basis.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I'm glad you asked that, because after we asked these questions at committee, they did register, and I count 44 meetings. They met with everybody: assistant deputy ministers, senior ADMs, Madam Chagger or Madam Ng, the PCO and right into the Prime Minister's office. This was pretty extensive, and what was being negotiated was a $912-million contract.
They said they registered after the fact because they were being a good charity. Because they register after the fact and after Parliament shines a spotlight and asks why they had all these meetings and didn't register, are they absolved? Hypothetically, for an organization that gets found out and then registers, would that be okay?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
They're not absolved.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Okay.
I'm running out of time.
I know you probably can't answer, but I notice that Democracy Watch asked that questions of illegal lobbying by WE be referred to the RCMP.
Would you feel that if you had enough evidence, this would be a case that could be referred to the RCMP? You said you referred a number of cases to them.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
So far this year, I've referred three matters.
Absolutely, if the evidence gives reason for me to believe that an offence has occurred, I will refer the matter.
I've referred 10 matters since I've joined this office. The threshold is not very high, so when I have reason to believe that an offence has occurred, once I've started looking into it, I will refer the matter.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Thank you.
November 27th, 2020 / 2:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you very much, Mr. Angus and Madame Bélanger.
Now we'll move to the second round, which is a five-minute round.
Mr. Gourde, you may go ahead. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here, Ms. Bélanger. It's always a pleasure to see you and hear what you have to say.
I'm delighted to know that the work we do as a committee is followed so closely because the relevance of our work has been called into question. Knowing that our work can inform and help you is very useful going forward.
You said something I find rather odd. I know you can't reveal too much. When organizations and individuals communicate with federal institutions, seldom are they not required to register as lobbyists, whatever their reason for reaching out. They may be looking to obtain information, promote a product or service, or be referred to the appropriate government contact.
It is very telling when an organization does not feel the need to register as a lobbyist simply because the government reached out to it and not vice versa. It underscores just how close an organization can be to the highest levels of government. I find that very worrisome. This is the first time I have heard of an organization not having or not wanting to register on the so-called basis that it was contacted directly by the government and was not soliciting anything. Does that closeness worry you?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Of course it worries me when people have a poor understanding of the obligations prescribed in the act. Fortunately, the number of individuals registered proves to me that most people from organizations and corporations understand the act.
I often hear organizations say that they are sure they are not meeting the criterion concerning the important part of work, but they are still registering in the interest of transparency.
Yes, it worries me when the act is not well understood. So I continue to work with my team to better inform people.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Some officials are awarding small contracts of under $25,000. They can award those contracts directly without going through a bidding process, as those are not really expensive contracts and it is sometimes faster to do things this way. Over time, we have noted that this way of doing things was fair.
Beyond a certain threshold, contracts cannot be awarded directly. Is the threshold still $25,000, or do you have other examples for us?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Contract awarding is not at all within my purview. A consultant who communicates with the government regarding contract awarding must be registered as a lobbyist. However, organizations and corporations who communicate with regard to contract awarding do not lobby. That's not lobbying because I assume there are rules in place for contracting, which strikes something of a balance and also requires some transparency. Communications to do with contract awarding do not constitute lobbying for organizations and corporations.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
When the government implements a program or a contract worth hundreds of millions of dollars, for example, there are specifications where bidders or suppliers must provide certain details. So it is really important to ensure that the supplier is capable of completing the contract when large amounts are involved.
However, it is still rare to see a supplier extol their specialties and strong points in a contract so that, in the end, only the business owner's name would be missing, indicating that just one business owner can win it.
Do you find that strange?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There is contracting, but there are also contribution agreements, which constitute lobbying. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.
If we are talking about simple contracting, I would recommend that you discuss this with the procurement ombudsman, as he is the one who ensures the integrity of rules in that area.