Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 11th, 2020

[Simon Kennedy]

I would say not really, and it's not because of Palantir or any of the controversy around it. We actually received a lot of offers from firms to provide support pro bono. I think that in many cases people want to do the right thing and they want to help out the country, but it's also maybe a measure of goodwill to do that.

The bottom line is that we received a lot of efforts of pro bono support from companies of every conceivable configuration—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Kennedy.

[Simon Kennedy]

Yes, absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I'm sorry. You ran out of time again, but I wanted to give you a bit of time for that answer.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Now we're on to the the last round. We'll have enough time for Mr. Gourde.

Mr. Gourde, go ahead for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kennedy, I'm going to come back to all the offers you have received and to the companies that have been able to actively contribute to the fight against the pandemic.

Do you have any idea what percentage of companies ultimately did work for the government? Is it 30%, 40% or 50%?

[Simon Kennedy]

I don't have the figures at hand. I can give you a very brief answer, given the allotted time.

There have been cases where the government has made a purchase. There have been others where it has made an investment, for example, through the strategic innovation fund. There have been cases where companies wanted data or advice from us, without necessarily applying for a contract or investment.

So we've interacted with hundreds and hundreds of companies. For some it was a contract, for others it was an investment. Still others didn't need government assistance, just consultation. We interacted with a lot of companies, but I don't know what happened in each case. We certainly made investments, and I can give you examples, but I can't give you exact numbers.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I have the impression that you were caught between a rock and a hard place. Many companies wanted to do business with you, and you still had to respond to them. Perhaps the government exerted some pressure to ensure the production of certain required products, because otherwise the products had to be purchased elsewhere.

Was there more pressure from the government or from the companies?

[Simon Kennedy]

The shortcomings were obvious to us in the spring. For example, there was tremendous pressure with regard to masks. The projections pointed to a shortage of masks. It wasn't really possible to obtain enough masks from abroad. In some sectors, the pressure was enormous. We were aware of the shortage of products in the country.

Did the pressure come from the industry or the government? I'd say that it came from the situation. Several sectors were affected. We're talking about masks, but there was also the issue of ventilators and clothing for hospital workers, for example. We worked with the industry to shift production to this type of clothing.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I have one last question.

Will you submit a report to the government on the most sensitive issues, so that we can avoid making the same mistakes? Who knows, in five years, we could be facing a similar situation that may or may not be as bad.

Will there be a report on what needs improvement in certain industry sectors so that we can avoid the worst-case scenario?

[Simon Kennedy]

We're already thinking about some of these issues, for example in terms of masks. The governments invested in N95 masks and some other types of masks, which has given Canada good long-term capacity.

It will be up to the government to decide whether it's necessary to conduct a somewhat broader study. We've considered the long-term needs of the country. Some of the investments on the ground right now, in a sense, meet these needs.

I don't know whether I've provided a clear enough answer. You asked a good question about the long-term needs and the shortcomings. We're looking into these matters.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Sorbara for five minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to go back to Mr. Kennedy.

Deputy Minister, can you explain to me what you have seen and experienced throughout this pandemic in terms of how quickly things have moved, how quickly our government has reacted in putting in place programs to help Canadian workers and Canadian businesses?

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, I think everybody—certainly I felt this way—had a profound sense of the need to move quickly. The global situation evolved very quickly over the months of February and March. I would say that there was a real premium placed on moving rapidly to put support programs in place. I have described some of the work that was done on personal protective equipment and on biomanufacturing. We also felt the profound need to try to move as quickly as possible there.

Obviously, at the end of the day Canadians will judge the response for themselves, but I think we did our best. I certainly feel that my organization and my employees did their very best to move as quickly as possible while being responsible. I think the honourable members of this committee have talked about the necessity of not throwing the rules out and so on, but trying to move very rapidly and diligently.

If there were risks to be taken because we had incomplete information, we tried to make calculated, smart risks and to not let too much bureaucracy and red tape slow down what we all felt was the need to move quickly to make sure that the country was safe from a pretty desperate situation.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Absolutely.

Can you comment on the relationships among the different departments? Obviously, with ISED procurement and for me as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue, public servants across this country have done an enormous amount of heavy lifting for Canadians to ensure their public safety and to ensure that those who were impacted by COVID-19 got the funds they needed.

Could you describe to the committee how the working relationship was among and between the various departments?

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, it probably won't surprise you that the working relationship has been excellent.

In order to manage faster processes, if you like, and to try to move with alacrity during this crisis, we did establish quite a few governance mechanisms. For example, I have very regular meetings multiple times a week with my colleagues at Public Services and Procurement Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada, Health Canada, the Privy Council Office and so on. We've created some bureaucratic governance structures to make sure that we're all joined at the hip, that we're sharing information and that we're able, as officials, to make recommendations to our masters quickly.

I think there has been a very tight collaborative relationship among the lead departments throughout this whole process. I've only named a few that I work with regularly, but certainly it extends to Indigenous Services, Public Safety and a whole bunch of others.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, sir.

How am I for time, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You have a minute and a half.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Oh, thank you. I can do a follow-up question.

To the deputy minister again, as we move forward, how do you see your role shifting now that we're moving to more of the recovery side? We've seen that the initial vaccines are now being rolled out here in Ontario through the University Health Network. We've seen the Premier of Ontario applaud the vaccine rollout. We've seen General Hillier comment on it. On our side, the representative from the army came over. I'm sorry that I've forgotten his name, but in terms of transitioning some of the programs back to more of a recovery focus, Deputy Minister, how do you see that angle rolling out in the next few months?

[Simon Kennedy]

Well, I think we are definitely thinking about the recovery and how we can best support the government and best support Canadian workers and the business sector in the recovery to come.

The other thing I think we as a ministry are doing is trying to reflect on some of the lessons and some of what we've seen during the pandemic. In the fall economic statement, for example, there was a reference to examining biomanufacturing and what the long-term picture needs to be for biomanufacturing. That's something that we're certainly looking at.

As a Canadian, I feel very grateful that we have certain capacities in Canada and that the country has been able to pivot to produce a lot of personal protective equipment, but there are areas in which there are gaps. Biomanufacturing is arguably one of them, so one of the ways in which ISED can maybe support the government and support Canada is that in the future we'll be looking at what some of the capabilities are that we can support in the business sector so that we're better prepared for the future, and that's something we're certainly working on.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sorbara, and thank you very much, Mr. Kennedy.

We bid you a very Merry Christmas. We're all giving the greeting of a great 2021 coming up because of all we have lived through in 2020.

Colleagues, we're going to suspend now to go to our second panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Colleagues, we're ready to start with our second panel. Mr. Angus, of course, always wants to entertain us, not understanding that he complicates everyone's life with his great voice, but I know he does that with—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'll do anything to score points, Chair—anything. If you give me an extra 30 seconds, I promise to stop singing.