Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 19th, 2021

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You were underage. In Canada, images for those under age 18 are non-consensual and meet the test for child pornography.

When Mr. David Tassillo was at our committee testifying, which is the same as testifying under oath, he was asked the question, “What is your opinion on putting the onus on your company to be able to vet from the onset and take away the onus on children?” Mr. Tassillo said, “I would never put the onus on the children. We are putting the onus on us.”

Would you say that with regard to your efforts to get your life back and your private images back that Pornhub did not tell us the truth? Were you the one who was forced to have the onus on you in terms of defending and trying to get these horrific images taken down? Is that how you see it?

[Witness 2]

Yes, definitely. I had to constantly try to find these videos and images myself. They had no help for me whatsoever [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for that. I notice that you said that they are liars. Is that correct? Did you say that?

[Witness 2]

Yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Witness 1, you also accused Pornhub of lying. I'm concerned, because you're talking about the thumbnail image of your abuse. I don't want to go into the particulars, but is that thumbnail image an image of you without your clothes on?

[Witness 1]

Yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

Under section 162.1 of the Canadian Criminal Code, anyone “who knowingly publishes, distributes, transmits, sells, makes available or advertises an intimate image of a person knowing that the person depicted in the image did not give their consent to that conduct” is guilty of an offence.

You did not give Pornhub your consent for that personal image that is still up there today.

[Witness 1]

No, of course not.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Of course not. You say this is day 1,192. I found that very moving, because it seems to me this ongoing trauma.... You did say that Pornhub told you to go to Google to take it down.

[Witness 1]

Yes, in my initial contact form I explained to them that I had initially tried just getting it off Google, because that works if the content doesn't exist, but Google said they can't do it because the content still exists and I'd have to contact the web host.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[Witness 1]

I explained all of that to them.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Do you have emails of your attempts to deal with Pornhub that you'd be willing to share with the committee? We don't make these public. We're just looking to gather the evidence, and I'd ask guest two this as well, if you have any documentation, because what was really surprising when we had Serena Fleites here, who I thought was a really powerful witness, was that Pornhub told us they had no record of ever talking to her. It just didn't seem to add up. If you have any of those kinds of email attempts and letters, that would be very helpful.

I'm going to turn to Ms. Galy now, because I don't have much time. We asked Pornhub two questions that I think are very crucial for your testimony.

On their terms and conditions, I asked him why people such as you who have complaints have to go to Cyprus when this is a company listed in Canada. He seemed very surprised that I mentioned Cyprus. It seemed like he had never read his own terms of reference. He's the CEO of the company. He said, “We abide by Canadian laws. There's no need of Cyprus.” Then he said he would get back to us on this question through their “legal counsel”, but he said, “Clearly, we are...in Canada. We abide by Canadian law.”

Was that the impression you were given by them? Why did you feel you had to go to Cyprus to get legal justice from Pornhub to get your non-consensual images taken down?

[Victoria Galy]

I actually have a direct email with their legal director who told me exactly where I would have to serve them in Cyprus and that they did not have any registered agent for service of process in the United States. I don't know if they do in Canada, but for the United States where I'm at, no. I have an email, like I said, from their legal director, that absolutely said I must serve them in Cyprus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

You said that you were forced to send pictures of yourself, which I think is incredibly traumatic, yet when we asked about witness Serena Fleites having to send photographs of a personal nature of herself, they seemed to be very surprised. They said that was against their policy. Would you say that they were telling the truth to our committee or misleading our committee?

[Victoria Galy]

They never told me that I had to submit that. It was simply that they did not.... They told me that it was a verified model and that the content would not be removed because someone else was claiming it. It was in my own desperation to try to get these videos removed that I prepared a PowerPoint presentation, initially for the police department, putting together, like I said, matching birthmarks and various things that were undeniable—as well as my voice—on the videos in an attempt to try to get them to listen. They did not ask me personally to send that. I voluntarily did so.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. If you have any emails that you're willing to share with our committee, it would be helpful.

Mr. Chair, would you indulge me? Would it be possible to ask Mr. Bowe for clarification here?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

If there's no objection from committee members, I will view that as consent from the committee members.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Bowe, I wanted to ask you this, because you know a lot more about American law than I do. Pornhub told us that they were really surprised that in their terms of reference Ms. Galy or anyone else would have to go to Cyprus to serve them. They say they're listed as a Canadian company. They're very easy to find.

What would be the normal procedure for dealing with a complaint like this for a woman in Tennessee, say, or any other state in the union in addressing a company like Pornhub? Why is there that provision that they have to go to Cyprus?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Bowe, are you able to unmute yourself and speak? I don't know if we have that all connected. I'm hoping we do.

[Michael Bowe, Lawyer, Brown Rudnick LLP, As an Individual]

I think I'm up. Can you hear me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Yes, we can.

[Michael Bowe]

We don't think that you do need to go to Cyprus, and when we bring claims, we won't be going to Cyprus.

However, it brings up an important point, which is beyond the scope of this particular hearing. This is a company that has an international corporate structure of shell companies that, if you were teaching a class on tax evasion, money laundering and shielding, would be something that you would teach if you were to look at this structure. The structure is designed to make it hard to know where to sue and hard to know who to sue, and to make it impossible for people who aren't necessarily lawyers who've practised for 30 years in that type of environment to know where to go.

No, we think they are subject to jurisdiction in the U.S. and they're subject to jurisdiction in Canada. I'll stop at that. I could go on for a while, but this is a structure that is set up that has none of the indicia of a legitimate company.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

Colleagues, we have exhausted our time, but I want to take the chair's prerogative. If committee members have a very short question in order to provide additional clarification to the testimony we heard, I will entertain any of those short questions now. Members can indicate to me by raising their hands. I don't see any additional questions.

I want to thank our witnesses in this hour. Thank you for your patience in waiting for us and thank you for your testimony. It was very difficult for you, I'm sure, and we certainly appreciate the work you have done to prepare for this committee, the work you did in preparation and also the bravery you demonstrated by coming out and speaking publicly about your experience. Thank you so much.

Colleagues, we will now just suspend for a short period of time so that we can get additional witnesses to log in, and then we'll begin the process of our meeting as soon as possible.

We will suspend just for one minute.