Evidence of meeting #24 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thanks, Madam Chair.
I want to start with Mr. Reed Cowan's testimony. I've not been a member of this committee for the entire duration. By the way, I'm very sorry for the threats to your family in the course of all this. No one should endure that.
I did sit through Reed Cowan's testimony. He obviously was a significant donor, but—I just want to get this right—he was a former member of the WE Charity advisory board. Is that right?
Founder, WE Charity
Yes, we had an honorary advisory board about 15 years ago. We had him and others participate in an honorary capacity.
Liberal
Founder, WE Charity
As we shared in our opening remarks, first of all, we're heartbroken about what happened 15 years ago. A plaque was changed, very unfortunately. It was one of two plaques for a school that was built in Kenya. Four schools in total were built. Two had plaques and one was, unfortunately, changed. We are looking into it. We've actually created a board committee to find out what happened. We're taking this very seriously. We really would like to understand and to make sure that he has all the information on this topic.
We were able to reach [Technical difficulty—Editor] and apologize, but we of course have much more to do.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
What do you make now of the December article in Bloomberg where staff joked that WE plaques should be made of velcro because they were swapped so frequently? I know that initially the response was that that's never happened. What do you make of staff saying that now?
Founder, WE Charity
We understand that two cases have been identified in that same village at that same time, which was about 15 years ago. We want to research it. We want to get the bottom of it. It shouldn't have happened. We apologize for those two cases. We're going to continue to look in case there's anyone else that this has happened to.
There's context to give. One thing that sometimes.... I'm not saying this happened in this particular case because, again, it was 15 years ago. We're trying to figure out our records.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Rather than speculate.... How would this have happened? Who is responsible for moving these plaques?
Founder, WE Charity
It would have been in Kenya. It would have been a member of the Kenya team, theoretically. The thought that comes to mind, potentially, is that—and again, I'm not going to speculate about Mr. Cowan, but generally—we have funding to build schools, but funding also comes in to provide teacher training, lunches for kids and vaccinations. The funding to actually run a school is exponentially more than the cost to build a school, as you can imagine. Sometimes multiple plaques are placed on a project because it takes multiple donors to run the project.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Why would a plaque ever be taken down? I guess that's the part I've tried to think through. I just can't really figure out the answer to that.
Founder, WE Charity
I agree with you. It should never have happened. We made a mistake. A mistake was made in the organization involving that man's plaque. One of those two plaques should not have been taken down. You're absolutely right.
That's why I called him and I apologized. We publicly apologized. We know we need to get to the bottom of that.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
As I say, I haven't gone down the rabbit hole like some of my colleagues on this. I was a bit skeptical about the contract to begin with because I thought the Canada summer jobs program was the better place for it. I didn't really go down the rabbit hole of who was ultimately to blame in all of this, but it does concern me.
I take your point. This can be a partisan place, but your staff aren't partisan. To have staff joke that WE plaques should be made of velcro.... Then The Fifth Estate spoke to more than a dozen former employees who had concerns that the organization was not always transparent with donors.
What's a member of the public like me to make of this? It's not partisan actors like Mr. Angus—whom I happen to like—but dozens of staff.
Founder, WE Charity
And thousands of staff over time were pleased. Many of them loved their experience with the organization.
Specifically on The Fifth Estate, they had one example of an individual they said was confused on whether they had funded the entirety of a water project. It's subsequently been clarified that this individual was not confused, but unfortunately that piece went into the public domain and has been repeated and that creates a real difficulty for us as an organization. Later, CBC put a piece on the air involving boreholes. Eight of the donors who were featured on that signed an open letter stating they were misrepresented. But they were very clear and knew they were funding maintenance and drilling the borehole.
I'm happy to have this conversation with you. I know it's obviously out of the scope, and I appreciate that people have stayed within the scope of pandemic spending, but with WE, as an organization, the money goes to help kids. We are transparent with our donors. We're not perfect. We make errors. We absolutely make errors, like Mr. Cowan's plaque, and we try to own those errors to the best of our ability and fix them when we can.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
What's the name of the individual who would be—
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Mr. Fortin, we now go to you, for two and a half minutes. You can have a few extra seconds on account of the interpretation delays.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Kielburger, in recent years, you've paid a little over $400,000 to members of Mr. Trudeau's family, from his wife and his mother, Margaret, to his brother, Alexandre. You actually paid between $400,000 and $500,000 in speaking fees, as well as hotel, restaurant, airfare and other expenses. That's already been established.
When you received the contract from the federal government, did you inquire as to whether there were any ethical concerns given your ties to the Trudeau family?
Founder, WE Charity
Margaret Trudeau, for example, was booked through a speaking bureau. If you go on that same speaking bureau website you'll see—
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Kielburger, sorry to cut you off. I don't mean to be rude, but I only have two and a half minutes.
Did you raise the issue of ethics or a conflict of interest with government officials?
Founder, WE Charity
To answer your question, other non-profits booked Madam Trudeau. Banks book her. Dozens of groups book her every year. They also receive federal funding. They work with the government. If that's inappropriate in any manner we trust the government should change the rules and not allow her to have speaking bureaus and work for non-profits. We're one of countless groups that do.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
If I understood you correctly, you did not raise the issue of ethics and assumed the government would do it.
Is that correct?
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
All right.
To your mind, was there not, at the very least, the appearance of a conflict of interest, or did you see the situation as normal and irrelevant?
Founder, WE Charity
Again, allow me to point out the obvious: many non-profits book.... Madam Chair, you can see them online on the speaking bureau website. Banks book her to come to events. She's one of Canada's most famous mental health speakers. I respect the question, and frankly I wish we never had, obviously, in light of all that has transpired. But that conflict of interest is the responsibility of the government. We're very transparent in how we engage. The Prime Minister said he knew his mother was doing this for us. Others in government knew. Again, anyone can book her through a website to come to an event. That's what we did, and she spoke on mental health. Many non-profits that also get government funding arrange for Madam Trudeau to speak. Banks—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
At any point, did a government official tell you they would have to look into the ethical implications? Were you ever told there might be a conflict of interest? Was that discussed with you?