Evidence of meeting #26 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Sure. Let's hope you can visit my riding by the end of next year.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Your time is up.
We're going to turn to Ms. Lattanzio now for the next round of questions.
Ms. Lattanzio.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have some more questions for you, Mr. Minister.
I'd like to dig into the Clerk of the Privy Council's testimony. He said that, given the importance of this issue with respect to pandemic response and the size of the contribution, he didn't know how the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance couldn't have participated in developing the grant program and approval process policies.
Could you comment on that?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
As I said a little earlier, Ms. Lattanzio, the Clerk of the Privy Council said that, given the scope and size of the program and the dollars involved, of course those people would be informed. That's what the clerk told the committee.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Mr. Minister, my understanding from a question Mr. Sorbara asked earlier was that the 5,000 pages of documents contained letters and documents that had been sent to Mr. Theis. It was also my understanding that he didn't respond to that.
If that is indeed the case, it seems clear that there was no further communication between Mr. Theis and the people at WE Charity. Isn't that right?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
That's right. Ms. Lattanzio.
I have here the record of that interaction. There was just the one conversation I've already mentioned. That conversation took place on May 5 and lasted 25 minutes. During the conversation, WE Charity described its services, and so on. Mr. Theis wasn't very familiar with the organization. WE Charity took the opportunity to tell him about what they do.
Mr. Theis asked a few question and then directed the organization to Diversity and Inclusion and Youth. As you said, people from WE Charity sent Mr. Theis several emails. I believe he replied to just one of them out of courtesy. That's something we ourselves do regularly.
He didn't reply to all the emails though.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Mr. Minister, those documents were in fact provided and are among the 5,000 documents that were made available to all of our colleagues.
It seems clear to me that this individual received emails but didn't reply to them. I believe that puts an end to any debate about communications between the parties.
To be honest, I don't see why we're now rehashing issues about whether there was communication and, if so, by what means. My colleagues have had these documents since last summer, but they're still rehashing the same issues.
The issue of intimidating witnesses has been raised. That doesn't apply to you, Mr. Minister, but I think that's the protection you were alluding to earlier with respect to government employees.
I have one last question to ask you about this matter.
I have one last question to ask you about this matter.
Based on your experience and expertise, are unsolicited ideas and proposals relating to a program often sent to the government?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Yes, I did have a chance to talk about that earlier. That happens a lot. There are discussions with groups, with businesses or, as I said before, with opposition members who want to share ideas. That's especially true in a pandemic situation. At the start of the crisis, we were all trying to figure out how to react to the situation. All MPs were looking at ways to help their constituents and the government, how to get programs up and running.
What I would say to you, Ms. Lattanzio, is that the work I did with people such as Mr. Julian, Ms. Bergen, at the time, and Mr. Therrien, was one of the best experiences I've ever had as a minister. We put partisanship aside and came up with programs that helped everyone.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Mr. Minister, do you think it's inappropriate for the government to consider proposals and programs like that and even to follow up sometimes? I'm talking about a major program that would help Canadians.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
The important thing, Ms. Lattanzio, is obviously to follow up responsibly, professionally and by following the rules. That is what the government did.
To come back to your initial question, it is not uncommon to receive such proposals because Canadians are very creative and full of ideas. The government benefits when those ideas are submitted, but it has to be done appropriately.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Ms. Lattanzio. Your time is up.
I'm going to turn to Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, to the question asked by Mr. Barrett, I believe, whether Rick Theis was aware that WE covered the expenses of the Prime Minister's wife when she travelled to London, you said no, not to your knowledge.
Again, I understand as in the previous examples that you are not inside Rick Theis' head. You cannot say what he knows and doesn't know. I understand that. I think that every member of the committee understands that. That is why we asked him to come explain himself, not to bully him as I heard him say earlier, but to testify, to tell us what is happening and what happened, to his knowledge.
If we cannot get his testimony by inviting him here, if we cannot get his testimony when the House orders him to come testify, in your opinion, Minister, how can we find out what Rick Theis knows or doesn't know?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
We can glean that information from the different testimonies by the ministers.
Mr. Fortin, you have been here from the beginning, you have—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Minister, you just said that you didn't know, or that you needed the facts. You said that several times.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
I was talking to Mr. Poilievre when I said I needed facts.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
It doesn't matter who you were responding to. I can't blame you, Minister, I would do the same thing if I were you. You can't know what Mr. Theis knows or doesn't know.
However, the committee needs to know what he knows. Witnesses have shared some disturbing things with us and we want to ensure that we have the correct version of the facts. We want to ask him for his version.
What do we do if he does not abide by the orders of the House? How do we get his testimony?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Mr. Fortin, I think I have answered all of your questions rather clearly. It is possible that you are not—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I must be having a hard time understanding things, Minister.
What do we need to do to get Mr. Theis' version of the facts?
Liberal
Bloc
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
When I said I didn't know, it was in response to a question from Mr. Poilievre about a stack of 5,000 documents, about the contents of one of those documents.