Information & Ethics Committee on March 29th, 2021

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rodriguez, to your knowledge, has Rick Theis ever refused to obey an order of the House of Commons or of a court?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

No, not to my knowledge, Mr. Fortin. In this case, it's a directive—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Good.

Are you aware of cases other than this one, in the history or customs and practices of the House, where a minister ordered cabinet members to disobey an order of the House of Commons? Has that ever happened, to your knowledge?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, a number of times.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Can you give me an example, please?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I believe Minister Baird testified at committee. I think he did so in place of Mr. Soudas or Mr. Togneri. It was one or the other.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Did he order the witness to disobey an order of the House? I'm not talking about an invitation. We often invite witnesses. We agree on that. I believe it's a lot rarer for the House to order a witness to appear.

Do you know of any other cases in which a minister forbade someone from obeying an order of the House? Has that ever happened?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Personally, what I've seen is ministers telling their staff not to respond to a committee's invitation and replacing them.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

They avoided appearing before a committee that invited them. We've seen that a lot. I get that.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, the minister appeared in their place.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Right, but I'm not talking about invitations, which are common. There are hundreds of invitations a week. Well, maybe not that many, but lots. I'm talking about an order—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

So you agree with me about the principle of ministerial responsibility.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We could go on and on about ministerial responsibility. We did so last Thursday. We spent the day talking about it. We had that debate. We could go on forever, but that's not the issue. The debate ended with an order. The House gave an order. As I see it, the House is the supreme authority, and even the government must obey the House.

Now I'm discovering that ministers have precedence over the House. I'd like to know of other times when a minister, any minister, had precedence over the House and asked someone to disobey an order of the House.

Can you give even one example?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I can name one. Once again, it was in 2010. The government House leader rose in the House and said that no ministerial staff member would appear in committee, no matter....

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Was there...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin. Your time is up.

We're going to turn to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez, for appearing. I've always considered you a good friend. I don't feel that you're much of a witness to help us today, but I thank you for showing up.

I want to just say that I have been committed to getting answers, because this is our job at committee, and it is our job to ask tough questions. It is why the ethics committee has always been chaired by a member of the opposition, because it is about holding government to account.

I've never seen a committee on which government members are happy. They don't like asking tough questions. Occasionally we see them launch bitter personal attacks because we ask those questions. Today I asked a question about documents that we've been trying to get, and I was subjected to a personal attack by Mrs. Shanahan. It worries me, because I've had my family targeted for asking questions in this committee.

I think we need to stay focused here. I think we need to stay focused on getting this committee report to Parliament. I don't think the government will like the report, but it is our job to get those answers.

I've appreciated having you here. I don't think it's added very much. I would like to ask my colleagues to stay focused on what this committee has to do in the time that's remaining—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

On a point of order, Chair—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

These personal interruptions and interference—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We are recognizing a point of order. Go ahead, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

My name has been used again by Mr. Angus, and he has in the past used the mention of his name to interrupt a member who was speaking. Using the word “attack” is unparliamentary. It is in no way representative of the discussions—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That is debate.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

—that we're having here, and I would ask that the member withdraw his remarks.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you. That is debate. That is not a point of order. We will return to Mr. Angus.