Information & Ethics Committee on April 23rd, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I recognize your point of order, Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

With all due respect to Mr. Sorbara, what he's talking about is very important. Actually, it's what we want to talk about, but right now we're on a motion and I believe we're not dealing with the motion anymore. So we need to get this motion dealt with before we talk about Pornhub.

Again, not because it's not important, but it's not what we're talking about right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Mr. Sorbara, I was sensing that you were getting completely off-topic. I'll encourage you to get on to the subject we are discussing. I do believe that you, as well as other committee members, have expressed the desire to move on, get to a vote and complete this so we can get on with other work.

Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

I understand your position very well. When we're talking about a motion, we have to remain relevant.

I believe Mr. Sorbara was making the distinction, as I understand it, that talking about something other than the committee's priority comes at a cost. That is the only reason he was saying that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I agree with Mr. Fergus, Mr. Sorbara and Mr. Fortin.

I think there's a solution to this.

It is clear to me, as the chair, that we're not going to come to a consensus with regard to where we're headed. My suggestion now is to move immediately to a vote on the motion to allow committee members to determine whether we support it or we don't. We can then determine what to consider next as a committee with regard to future business.

Is there a willingness to move to a vote on the motion?

I'm getting several thumbs up.

Ms. Shanahan and Mr. Sorbara oppose it. Mr. Fortin and Mr. Carrie support it. Mr. Fergus opposes it. Mr. Dong isn't indicating one way or another. Mr. Barrett supports it. As Mr. Gourde and Mr. Johns are both supportive of it.... As you can see, colleagues, we are a divided group. I keep hearing members of the committee urging me to allow things to move along, but as you can see, I'm in a position where I cannot move things along until the speaking order has been exhausted.

Ms. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have a point of order, Chair.

I was first on the speakers list here today from a meeting that was suspended from last Friday. I had many points that I wanted to make on this motion. You declined to allow me to speak, and now you're naming members on their vote whether to continue or not continue a discussion on something that we don't agree with.

I'm sorry, but you refused me the option to speak.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Ms. Shanahan. You haven't been refused. You are on the speaking order. You will get a chance to speak if your colleagues allow you to do that.

As long as other members are ahead of you on the speaking order, they do have the floor until such time as they give it up. I think it's important because members of all parties had indicated to me that they wanted to move this along. As the chair, I think it's important for me to explain why we can't move forward.

The reason we can't move forward is that the members on the speaking order want to continue to speak. When I've offered the opportunity to move to a vote, to move this along expeditiously, members, as I've point out, are divided on the issue, so I'm unable to do that.

We have Mr. Dong on a point of order.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I have a lot of respect for you, Chair. It's not an easy job. Respectfully, I want to point out that committee members like Mr. Barrett, Monsieur Fortin—I can name a few others, including on our side—Mr. Fergus.... Today we hear from Mr. Sorbara, who has spoken at length several times on this motion. I have not had a chance to speak to this motion. That's why I think I need to be heard. That's the expectation of my constituents. That's why I think we should continue on the debate. That's why I'm not—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Dong. I appreciate that.

Members have a right to hold the floor as long as they want once they've been given the floor. Out of common courtesy to people like Mr. Dong, who has not had an opportunity yet to speak on this motion, I would encourage members to make their points and then cede the floor to their colleagues. I am sensing a growing frustration, as has been demonstrated through the interventions by other members, that they haven't had an opportunity to speak.

Mr. Sorbara, I will turn it back to you. I will encourage you that your colleagues.... As Mr. Dong has indicated, he is frustrated that he is unable to get the floor.

Mr. Dong has a point of order.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My frustration was not the fact that my colleagues have expressed their points of view. I'm waiting patiently for my turn. My point of order is that I've tried to explain the reason I'm not ready to move to a vote—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

I think there is only one way we can move to a vote, and that's when we exhaust the speaking order. These continued delays will simply drag out the length of time until we can get to a vote. I'm taking note of people's frustrations that they haven't been able to speak. As this continues, we're not able to get on to other committee business. Everybody who has spoken has urged the committee members to move forward, but I'm explaining that there is only one solution to that: we make our points as quickly as possible, allow the speaking order to be exhausted and allow for a vote to happen.

Mr. Sorbara, we'll return to you.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I wish to welcome MP Angus back to the committee this morning. It's great to see you, MP Angus. Your honourable colleague, Mr. Johns, did a spectacular job in representing you and the New Democratic Party this morning here on committee.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much for that.

Did I miss anything, or is this just a replay of last week?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Order, folks.

Mr. Sorbara, we'll return to you for your final points, and then we'll move on to the next members on the speakers list, which include Mr. Carrie, Ms. Lattanzio, Mr. Dong, and then continue to Mr. Barrett, Ms. Shanahan, and on we go.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Chair, to reach unanimity within the esteemed colleagues who are gathered here this morning on this access to information, privacy and ethics committee—because we are a very multi-faceted committee—motions can be withdrawn, motions can be amended. Motions need to be debated, and that's what we are doing here with MP Fortin's motion.

To recap, Mr. Angus, I'll give you the 30-second, Coles Notes version. I'm in full favour of transparency and accountability with respect to all motions, and this motion even more so. We did have ministers appear in front of committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'm recognizing your point of order, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Chair, you will know that the rules of relevance and repetition are important. While the intention may be good, there is no need for any speaker to recount their own points back to the committee. It is in fact out of order for that to occur.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Sorbara is aware of that. I know that he is an experienced parliamentarian, so I will encourage him to resist the temptation to repeat himself.

Mr. Sorbara, we'll go back to you for your final points.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair, for your intervention. To be very frank, I sat on the finance committee for many years with your esteemed and honourable colleague from Carleton. I know that our side, when Pierre had the floor, was always respectful to him. I know that you're doing the same here in a very tough situation as well, so I want to say thank you for that.

I do hope we can reach a conclusion where we look at Mr. Fortin's motion and can finally have an opportunity to reach some sort of consensus. My thinking process today is that if we're able to put this motion, when we do this study...to put it in the appendix of the motion, where it is cited, it may well be a reasonable thing to do in terms of answering the wishes of some of the committee members and us being able to cross that bridge together. At the same time, it recognizes the fact that when it comes to accountability, accountability is in line with ministerial accountability. I go back to that over and over again. If somebody directed someone to do something in life, or not directed someone not to do something in life, the buck stops with the minister and the ministers in any government. That's been my point all along with this.

Again, to MP Angus, not for repetition, my comment was that over the weekend—I don't want to repeat this, but I will repeat this—I used my LinkedIn account comprehensively. The reason that one of the member's staffers appears on the original ask to come and speak, and appears on this one here, is that a message was sent to LinkedIn. I send messages. They're always actually predone. That's one of the options with LinkedIn, and I understand that.

To me, that was sort of disappointing, especially with all the evidence we were presented with and all the other documents that were presented and continue to be presented and continue to be received by this committee with regard to the organization we dealt with, and the seven hours of testimony that was provided by the brothers.

That's where I'm at. I don't want to belabour this point. I would love just to wrap up at this point and then move the discussion on to the next member. I count seven hands up from members who wish to speak to this. It's 11:58 a.m., and I have spoken for a considerable amount of time. I have given my humble thoughts on where we can get to a point where we can move on. As a member of Parliament for my riding, representing the wonderful constituents who I have the privilege of representing, I would like to move on and wrap this study up as soon as possible. I would like to move on to what I think is the more pressing issue at hand, which is the Pornhub and MindGeek study. I think that has galvanized....

MP Angus, you may not have seen the article in La Presse this morning from another individual with regard to non-consensual images. The article that's out this morning is with regard to a fire that happened at Montreal at the executive's home.

That's not to take away from this motion, but in my humble thoughts, I would love to move on to the other folks.

I don't want to belabour the point, to MP Warkentin and to MP Barrett, and I'm glad you had some time this weekend to spend time with your kids. I also have an eight-year-old. It was cold, but we still went to the park and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Sorbara. You can maybe catch up later on, just for the sake of committee members.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I will do that. I'm almost—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I do have Mr. Carrie. I do have Ms. Lattanzio and Mr. Dong.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Chair, I still do have the floor. I will stop—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'll allow you to finish, but you were getting into personal discussions there. I'm happy to have that happen, but it would probably be best, for the sake of the committee, for that to happen at a future time.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Absolutely. We want to use the committee's time in the most judicious and diligent manner for the matters at hand, and the matter at hand is the Fortin motion.

I will sign off. I will turn it over to the next speaker and just say that I do hope that by the end of this meeting we can come to a position where the committee is able to vote on something that's in front of us, something we can agree to, and we can get to that vote, and also move on to wrapping this study up and making the recommendations we feel necessary with regard to the study this motion is in reference to, and then also move on, more importantly, I think, to the Pornhub/MindGeek study.

I'll stop there, Chair. It is 12 o'clock, and I thank my honourable colleagues for listening to my humble thoughts for the last half an hour or so.