Information & Ethics Committee on June 7th, 2021

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Excellent.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You are out of time. Thank you for asking.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Angus, we'll turn to you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for coming today.

I'd like to ask you right off the top, on what date did the cabinet begin to discuss the issues of the allegations of sexual violence against young people on Pornhub?

When did cabinet start to talk about the Pornhub issue?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you know, there is confidentiality around cabinet discussions, so I'm not at liberty to disclose this information.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

Minister Bill Blair told us the government was creating this new regulator. Is this new regulator going to be the CRTC?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Again, as I said to your colleague earlier, I am here to discuss the objectives of the legislation. In terms of the details of the legislation, that's not possible until the bill is tabled, but I would be happy to come back and testify at the committee.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Are you saying that Bill C-10 is not covering Pornhub?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Bill C-10, as I've said a number of times, is about cultural content. It's about ensuring that the web giants pay their fair share, and that our artists are fairly compensated for their—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I understand that. I'm just wondering whether, on the use of generated content, it's not going to apply to Pornhub.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It's not about content. BillC-10 is not about content moderation, which is also something I've said a number of times in the past.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I just need you to say yes or no. Bill C-10 is not going to be the means by which you regulate Pornhub. You'll have something else—another regulator or some other process?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It will not be done through Bill C-10, yes, that is correct.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Rose Kalemba contacted our committee and asked us to fight for her. At age 14, she was kidnapped, brutally tortured and sexually assaulted, and her videos were posted on Pornhub, downloaded and promoted.

In your view—and I just have to be blunt here because we've talked about some really difficult stuff at our committee so I hope you don't find me being too blunt—would you believe that the posting of those videos represents criminal acts?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you are well aware, they are criminal acts according to the Canadian Criminal Code, yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Good, because it has sections 162, 163 and 164, and yet those laws are not being applied.

I need to know why we need a regulator to oversee something that's already under the Criminal Code. The promotion of these videos, according to law, is a criminal act, so why don't we just apply the law?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As I said earlier, the challenge that we in Canada, and countries all around the world, are facing is that the tools that we have to deal with these issues in the physical world just aren't adapted to the virtual world. This is why Australia created a new regulatory body to deal with that, and it is why a number of countries either have created or are in the process of creating new regulations, new regulators, or both, to deal with this. It's because the tools we have just aren't adaptable.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Are you saying we simply don't need to use the Criminal Code? What surprises me is that internal documents from the RCMP's December 12 briefing note on Pornhub pointed out that your office is going to be taking the lead.

According to those documents, they are not going after Pornhub, so did cabinet tell the RCMP to stand down while you developed this regulator? Why is it that the RCMP are under the impression that you're the lead on this, and that the Canadian laws that exist are not going to be applied?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I respectfully disagree with the premise of your question. As I stated earlier, the legislation will address five categories of online harms, which are already criminal according to Canadian law, and which are already criminal activities under the Canadian Criminal Code.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I get that. I guess my concern is that you haven't actually come up with legislation. You don't know when this regulator's going to appear, and the RCMP internal notes say your office is taking the lead.

We have survivors who suffered serious crimes and abuse. We have the Criminal Code. I'm wanting to know why your government is saying that it will be the regulator that handles that, as opposed to telling the RCMP and the justice minister to do their job.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think you're misunderstanding what we're trying to do.

There are many reasons we need to create a regulator. One—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't have a problem with the regulator. What I have a problem with is the fact that we actually have criminal laws in place, and it seems that the RCMP has decided that Pornhub doesn't have to actually follow the law—there's voluntary compliance; your Attorney General says he's not even sure if they're a Montreal company; you're telling us there's going to be some kind of regulator, but you don't have one....

I just have to be honest. Having the minister of culture and communications handle a file about horrific sexual assault videos to me is like asking the minister of transportation to look after human trafficking.

Why is it that the laws of the land are just not being applied? You can go and get a regulator, but why are the laws not being applied?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Your analogy would be correct if I were the only one doing this. I'm not.

As I stated in my remarks initially, I am working with the Minister of Public Safety, with the Minister of Justice and with a number of other colleagues. This is a whole-of-government approach. It's not—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know, and they say you're the lead on this. They defer to you.