Evidence of meeting #42 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
There's no contract, because we don't use it.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
It was widely reported in 2007.
CIMS is used not only to track voter allegiance in a given riding—something every political party attempts—but also a host of other data gathered in the course of an MP's constituency office duties.
But the Conservatives use a single clearing house for all data collection, storage, datamining, mailing lists, voter tracking and any other partisan use such information may serve.
Apparently there was a bit of a snafu there. The prime minister at the time, Stephen Harper, asked the Conservative Party to investigate allegations against embattled MP Eve Adams. She crossed the floor a couple of times.
Some Conservative party members in the riding have complained of Adams's unauthorized use of their personal information contained in the party's CIMS database (Constituency Information Management System)—
This is from the National Post, by the way.
—when she's “a member of Parliament who has no history with them on a personal level and does not represent them in Parliament.”
That's what citizens were already complaining about. They were getting mail from this MP, and I can tell you that I was getting it from a Conservative MP. It had nothing to do with me. That's reported in the National Post.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I have a point of order on relevance, Mr. Chair.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I recognize the point of order on relevance. Mrs. Shanahan has been asked several times to bring her comments.... Speaking about a member of Parliament who crossed over to the Liberal Party from the Conservative Party is probably not relevant to the amendment. I'll ask the member to bring her comments to the amendment that's being discussed at this time.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
It is to the point of why we want to have the study of the CIMS program—not just the CRM program of our party but also the CIMS program—and why we want to have this done by the Board of Internal Economy. That is my amendment.
This has been controversial in the past. In fact, I have far more on that. Maybe a public meeting to discuss this would be the thing to do.
A public meeting is an opportunity to air dirty laundry.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, right?
There was another complaint. The Toronto Star reported it. There was a memo to then prime minister Harper, saying that some incumbent MPs wanted to have “nominations held ASAP, including Rob Anders who believes he can win if we open [the contest] now.”
It says, however, that once a nomination contest begins, an MP or his staff will no longer have access to a party database.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Mr. Chair, on the subject of relevance, although I haven't heard the date of the article that's being referenced, it has to be at least 14 or 15 years old. I would imagine it's a bit of a stretch to find this relevant when we're talking about a government that hasn't been in place for six years. We're talking about MPs who haven't been in office for nearly two decades. The amendment to the motion is a little more narrow in scope than, perhaps, the news recitation that we're getting from the member opposite.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Barrett.
Mr. MacKinnon, go ahead on the same point of order.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC
Mr. Barrett's very motion references media reports. We are here on the strength of media reports.
Madam Shanahan, my colleague, is giving you media reports.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Mr. MacKinnon, I will rule on this point of order. You have pointed out exactly why I have to rule against Mrs. Shanahan. We aren't discussing the main motion. We're talking about the amendment.
I would remind members, as I have tried—
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC
Mr. Chair, if you would permit me to finish my point of order—
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I have the floor.
I have ruled against the point of order. I would ask Mrs. Shanahan to come to order, to speak to the amendment, to allow for a vote, and for members to then debate the motion as amended or not amended.
Mrs. Shanahan, go ahead on the amendment.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, my colleague, Madam Shanahan, is now going through a number of examples of reports of usage of the database of the Conservative Party and its possible misuse as a constituency management tool, and that goes to the very name. I can't think of anything more relevant to the amendment, Mr. Chair.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Mr. MacKinnon, I have ruled, and this is debate that you're engaging in.
Mrs. Shanahan, go ahead on the amendment.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Chair, I actually have far more to say, but I can save it for another time, because I am moving forward. It was Mr. Gourde who was telling us about the history going back 15 years and how important this kind of—
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Yes, thank you, Mrs. Shanahan. You'll recall I brought him to order in the same way that I will with other members. We are speaking on the amendment.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Indeed.
As I say, I have more incidents that indeed point to questions that can be asked about the party databases that are being used, apparently with constituent data. It's being turned around and could be used for pre-campaign or campaign purposes. I think these are very legitimate questions that Canadians would have. I personally would prefer to see them dealt with in BOIE, where they can be dealt with, very frankly, so that we don't have all of this partisan theatre that this committee has been subjected to almost from its beginning. That is the amendment we have before us.
I would actually welcome the support of any of my colleagues on this amendment. If they want to offer a subamendment that we can support, then I say we're ready to study this question. Mr. Fergus generously offered something before that would be substantive and that would certainly go a long way to reassuring Canadians that their private data is being handled correctly by political parties and, more importantly, by MPs. This is why we're here in this capacity, to represent our constituents.
As I say, I have far more that I can go into, but I'm happy to save it for another meeting and organize it and put it together, because there are some interesting things from the leadership campaign and data contracts that are going back and forth, and questions about who's a management consultant and who's not, and so on. That's why I offer yet again to opposition colleagues that if they want to study this.... Actually, the more I look at this material the more I think it needs to be studied, so I thank Mr. Barrett and the members who signed the letter bringing this to our attention.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I think it's something that we're waiting for on the amendment. Let's be open to sending this matter to BOIE if there's an appetite.... I'm looking at my fellow members. I know someone is going to be speaking a bit more fulsomely. I never quite get all the words together for an amendment, or a subamendment, but maybe someone else will have something to add to the discussion.
On that note, Mr. Chair, you can put me back on the speaking list and I'll pull this together.
Thank you.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
We'll have Mr. Dong and then we have Mrs. Shanahan again on the speaking list.
Mr. Dong.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
I've been listening to the conversations going back and forth. I'm a little disappointed that my colleague MP Fergus's proposal for a solution has not received positive support from the opposite side. I said earlier that when I first saw the notice of meeting, I was saying to myself that if it's about process and procedure, or members' code of conduct, I don't think this committee that we're sitting at right now has the mandate for it or is the most appropriate to look into it. If it's about ethics or a breach of privacy of our constituents, yes, this is the right committee, but I think all members would agree that we should look at the practice of the constituency offices of all members of Parliament.
I appreciate that Mr. Barrett pointed out that he maybe used a different service from other members, but I'm still confused as to how the opposition, collectively or caucus-wise.... Do they use one service? How do they tackle the differences in the different software and remain able to share information to serve their constituents? If it's about privacy protection, then we should be looking at all members' constituency office practices.
Nevertheless, here we are. We're here to discuss the use of NGP VAN and Data Sciences by the Liberal caucus members. As some members pointed out, it was reported on recently. However, again, I want to reiterate that the article spoke about more than just Liberal members' usage of data. I want to share with all the viewers that since day one, our caucus has always strived to have members of Parliament who are serving and accountable to their constituents. With hundreds of thousands of constituents per riding, this is not a simple task. Effectively managing constituency casework, outreach programs and communication is often a complicated task.
We heard from Mr. Gourde that it was more manual in terms of managing constituency casework. I too have had that experience. When I was working as a junior staffer at a local constituency office for a federal member, it was all paper and faxes. Right now, just with the amount, and especially during the pandemic, it's not possible to perform very efficient work for your electors. Having effective data management and technical infrastructure is critical to the work that members of Parliament need to do. In fact—
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Mr. Dong, I hate to interrupt you, but it seems as though your comments are more suited for the debate with regard to the motion and not the amendment. Did you have comments with regard to the amendment?
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Let's maybe fast-forward to that part. I know you're hungry and want to get out—