Evidence of meeting #42 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
I want to understand what you are saying, all of you.
Unfortunately, though, the spirit of the motion speaks for itself.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I will remind colleagues that we are speaking to the amendment. I know there was a desire to move to a vote on the amendment, but I now have Mrs. Shanahan on the list again. As well, I have Mr. Dong on the list again.
We'll hear from Mrs. Shanahan first, and then Mr. Dong.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
When we originally heard about today's meeting, it was supposed to be from 11 to 1. That's why I am not prepared. I didn't bring lunch, and I don't think any lunch was prepared. I was wondering if we could take a lunch break for half an hour.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Well, I'm the eternal optimist. I'm hopeful that we're very close to lunch for all of us. That means we get to the end of this discussion, we go to a vote, and then we vote on the main motion. If there's a desire by members to then adjourn the meeting, we'll adjourn the meeting and allow every member to go for lunch. That's the effort I'm going to make right now. I'm going to commit to you that I will do everything in my power to get you to lunch as soon as possible.
We'll hear from Mrs. Shanahan, and then I'm hopeful that we'll go to a vote.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
On a point of order, I have more to say too. You could canvass the room and see if we agree to a short lunch break.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
We'll hear from Mrs. Shanahan. Then we'll hear from Mr. Dong and go to a vote. Then we'll deal with the main motion.
Mrs. Shanahan.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I understand the desire of my colleague. I think we all thought we were going to get there.
I do want to say that I found Mr. Gourde's intervention very interesting. He was direct and honest about how things worked. This may be news to Canadians.
Some members have said that they want to find solutions. That is exactly what the Board of Internal Economy is designed to do. The issue at hand here has to do with how House resources are used, so it makes complete sense for the discussion we are having today to be brought to the Board of Internal Economy. They're the ones who are in a position to make decisions. Unless there is anyone here from the whips' offices, the Board of Internal Economy is best suited to handle this. The board has representatives from each party, and it is able to have open and honest discussions about the challenges we are all facing and then find a solution.
I don't see how this has anything to do with Mr. Pitfield. Mr. Pitfield's only mistake was to be Justin Trudeau's childhood friend. Does that preclude him from living his life, starting a business, working or even supporting the Liberal Party?
That's why I wondered earlier if people were just compiling a list of anyone who has been friends with the Prime Minister. If that is the goal here, then the same should be done for the leaders of all of the parties. You can see where this is going. This is, quite simply, the very definition of partisanship, and a study is not useful under these circumstances.
We've seen it, Mr. Gourde. Be honest with me, because I'm being honest with you. The committee was fishing for something when it called in witnesses. There was no other reason. These were public servants, young employees and ordinary business owners. Some of the witnesses were apparently business owners who had donated to the Conservative Party but made the mistake of working with a former Liberal member of Parliament who was now running a company that manufactures ventilators to combat COVID‑19.
Where does it all end? Will we have to send all of our volunteers to testify in committee? Will I have to send all of the ladies who make calls for me? I imagine that you also have volunteers. Is every single one of these people going to be questioned about what everything they do? As you and Ms. Lattanzio have pointed out, I don't think Canadians are interested in seeing everything we do.
It is important to support efforts in politics. I know that people don't like election campaigns, but they're part of the democratic process. During an election campaign, we need to talk with voters to share our plan and persuade them to support our position.
We're going to be campaigning soon. You have more experience with this than I do, although I've been through a couple elections. There are highs and lows. When things are going well, it's great and we are happy. It's a different story when things aren't going well. At the end of the day, once the campaigning is over and the candidate has been elected, whether we're talking about a federal member of Parliament, a member of the National Assembly or a mayor, the individual has a duty to work for the people.
You're probably right in saying that the House should equip members for campaigning. This is a necessary discussion, but the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics is not going to be creating such a tool.
This is about House resources—
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
—it's up to the Board of Internal Economy and our leaders. That's clear. It's not up to our committee.
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I completely disagree.
Right now, we're talking about the amendment.
My colleague, Mr. Fergus, made an interesting proposal. Canadians would like to know how parties operate. They're curious. We're all happy to see that COVID‑19 is getting relatively better. We're no longer looking at a one-dose summer; we're looking at a two-dose one. It would be wonderful to turn the page and move on to something else. That said, I did find Mr. Fergus's proposal interesting. He unfortunately had to leave the meeting, but he proposed that we give Canadians an opportunity to see how political parties operate.
Conflicts and misunderstandings can certainly often arise, especially when it comes to determining the role of a member of Parliament and of a political party. I've seen it. Before I was elected, my riding was represented by a New Democrat. Before him, my riding was represented by a member of the Bloc Québécois, who served two or three terms. During the first weeks and months after my election, in 2015 and 2016, I met with constituents and then—
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Mrs. Shanahan, I'll remind you again that we are speaking to the amendment. I know there's temptation to go on to other subjects, but we are speaking to the amendment. Your colleague, Mr. Dong, would like an opportunity to speak, and then we're hoping to get to a vote because I know that Mr. Dong would like to get out for lunch.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That is true. That is very true.
I just want to say that some people thought that they had to be a New Democrat to talk to the former NDP MP in their riding, that they had to be Bloc supporters to speak to the former Bloc Québécois MP or that they had to be Liberal to talk to me. That's not at all the case. Members of Parliament are there for everyone.
I'm going to switch to English now because this is the information we have, and this is the kind of thing that's a bit like the sausage-making of legislation or the sausage-making of politics. Apparently, someone referred to CIMS, and that's what I have in my amendment, because we want to add the study of the constituent information management system, which Mr. Barrett proudly says is completely paid for by the Conservative Party. But wait a minute: It's not a voter information management database; it's a constituent information management database. The CIMS looks at constituents, paid for by the partisan, political party, but used for the constituents in constituency offices, where that information is and must be kept confidential at all times, as Mr. Gourde so well said.
The overall purpose of CIMS is that it's an integrated voter management and targeting database used by the Conservative Party to target voters and donors, as well as overall campaign management. It's fully funded and managed by the Conservative Party of Canada. As the database is managed outside of Parliament, they use no outright parliamentary resources. However, they use the exact same database, without a firewall, to manage constituent cases.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, that's not true. It's been established in this meeting that that system is not used in our offices. In fact, Mr. MacKinnon went on at great length about the system I use in my office, and it is not—
2:35 p.m.
An hon. member
[Inaudible—Editor]
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Did Mr. MacKinnon get appointed chair during my intervention?
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I could barely hear Mr. Barrett's point of order because of the yelling by Mr. MacKinnon.
Mr. MacKinnon, you will come to order. Thank you.
Mr. Barrett.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Chair, it was well established, including by Mr. MacKinnon himself, that the software we use is our offices, mine included.... He even knew whose it was and knew who owns it. I don't even know who owns the company that uses it.
Chair, Mr. MacKinnon is not a regular at this committee and he might not realize how things work, but my understanding was that you are the chair and that he was very concerned about how thick people's skin was. I just wonder if he could be called to order, as he seems very upset.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
He has been called to order several times.
Mrs. Shanahan, I'll turn to you.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I'd be interested, then, to have that study and to have those contracts tabled so that Mr. Barrett could, indeed, prove that.
