Evidence of meeting #100 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was used.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philippe Dufresne  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Alexandra Savoie  Committee Researcher

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 100 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, December 6, 2023, the committee is commencing today its study of the federal government's use of technological tools capable of extracting personal data from mobile devices and computers.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I just want to remind all members again not to put the earpieces next to the microphone as it causes feedback and could cause potential injury to our interpreters.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses today. From the Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada, we have Mr. Philippe Dufresne, the Privacy Commissioner of Canada. Welcome, sir. We also have Lara Ives, executive director of the policy, research and parliamentary affairs directorate.

Before Mr. Dufresne begins, he has asked for up to 10 minutes to address the committee. I've granted that.

The other thing I will remind members of is that since we have only these two witnesses for the next two hours, we will reset the clock at the top of the hour and give Mr. Villemure and Mr. Green the additional time that they need.

Mr. Dufresne, again, welcome, sir. It's good to have you at the committee, as always.

Please commence with your opening remarks.

11 a.m.

Philippe Dufresne Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to contribute to your study on the federal government's use of technological tools capable of extracting personal data from mobile devices and computers.

Last fall, CBC/Radio-Canada reported that 13 federal institutions had acquired such tools. The media reports raised questions about the reasons for their use and whether these organizations were respecting their privacy obligations in using the tools.

Initial reports referred to them as covert surveillance or spyware. Since then, it has been clarified that the tools are digital forensic tools, which are distinct from spyware. Digital forensic tools are used to extract and examine large numbers of files from laptops, hard drives or mobile devices. They are typically used in investigations or technical analysis, and often with the knowledge of the device owner.

They can be used to analyze the metadata of a file, or to create a timeline of events, such as when an account was used, when websites were accessed, or to see when an operating system was changed. These tools can also be used to recover deleted data or to ensure that data has been properly wiped from a device before it is discarded or repurposed. This makes them useful investigative tools that can help to preserve the integrity of an evidence chain.

Digital forensics tools are distinct from spyware in that spyware is typically installed remotely on a person's device without their knowledge. It can then covertly collect personal information, such as keylogging and web‑browsing history. One example would be on‑device investigative tools, or ODITs, which are used by law enforcement to obtain data covertly and remotely from targeted devices. Importantly, in the context of law enforcement, judicial authorization is required prior to their use.

In August 2022, I testified before this committee as part of your study about the use of ODITs by the RCMP. You will recall that in that case, the RCMP advised the House that it had been using ODITs in recent years to obtain data covertly and remotely from targeted devices, but had not completed a privacy impact assessment, or PIA, and had not advised my office.

In my appearance at the time, I noted that PIAs were required under Treasury Board policy, but were not a legally binding requirement under privacy legislation. I recommended that the preparation of PIAs should be made a legal obligation for the government under the Privacy Act.

In its November 2022 report, the committee endorsed this recommendation and also called for an amendment to the preamble of the Privacy Act to indicate that privacy is a fundamental right, and for the act to be amended to include the concept of privacy by design and explicit transparency obligations for government institutions. I welcomed and supported these recommendations, and the committee may wish to reiterate them as they remain outstanding and relevant.

With technology increasingly changing the manner in which personal information is collected, used and disclosed, it continues to be important that government institutions carefully consider and assess the privacy implications of their activities to determine if and when PIAs are required.

My vision for privacy is one where privacy is treated as a fundamental right, where privacy supports the public interest and innovation, and where Canadians trust that their institutions are protecting their personal information. Conducting a PIA and consulting my office before a privacy-impactful new technology is used would strengthen privacy, support the public interest and generate trust. This is why it should be a legal obligation for government institutions under the Privacy Act.

Currently, the Treasury Board Secretariat's directive on privacy impact assessment requires that institutions conduct PIAs when personal information may be used as part of a decision‑making process that directly affects an individual; when there are major changes to existing programs or activities where personal information may be used for an administrative purpose; when there are major changes to existing programs or activities as a result of contracting out or transferring programs or activities to another level of government or to the private sector; and when new or substantially modified programs or activities will have an impact on overall privacy, even where no decisions are made about individuals.

In our advisory discussions with federal institutions, we promote the use of PIAs as an effective risk management process. PIAs ensure that potential privacy risks are identified and mitigated, ideally at the front end, across programs and services that collect and use personal information. That said, the use of a new tool does not always trigger the need for a PIA. This will depend on how the tool is being used and what is being done with the information that it collects.

The OPC has used digital forensic tools, for instance, in the context of certain breach investigations to determine the nature, scale and scope of the incident, including how a breach occurred and what types of personal information, if any, may have been compromised.

Digital forensics tools, however, can be used in ways that do raise important risks for privacy that would merit a full privacy impact assessment.

For example, when conducting an internal investigation about an employee's conduct where a decision will be made that will directly impact that individual, or as a tool used as part of an inquiry into alleged criminal activity.

In those types of cases, a privacy impact assessment would be required—addressing not only the specific tool being used to collect personal information, but the broader program under which the tool is being used.

It is incumbent on all federal institutions to review their programs and activities accordingly. Where digital forensic tools are used in the context of employee monitoring, institutions must take steps to ensure respect for the fundamental right to privacy and foster transparency and trust in the workplace. There should be clear rules about when and how monitoring technologies are to be used. My office updated its guidance on privacy in the workplace in May 2023, and my provincial and territorial colleagues and I issued a joint resolution on employee privacy in October 2023.

In the present case, following the CBC/Radio-Canada reports regarding the use of digital forensic tools in the federal government, my office followed up with the institutions that were listed there and in this committee’s motion to proceed with this study.

To summarize what we learned, three organizations indicated that they had completed and submitted a privacy impact assessment—or PIA—on the relevant program; one organization indicated that it had procured the tool but never used it; another organization indicated that a PIA was not required; and the remaining eight organizations indicated that they had either started work on a new PIA, or were considering whether to conduct a new PIA or to update an existing one in light of their use of the tools.

We will continue to follow up with institutions to insist that PIAs be completed in cases where they are required under the Treasury Board policy, but without a requirement in the Privacy Act there are limits to what we can do to ensure compliance. Privacy impact assessments, in appropriate cases, are good for privacy, good for the public interest and they generate trust. In this increasingly digital world, they should be a requirement under privacy law.

I'd be happy to take your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Dufresne. It is well under time, and I appreciate that.

We're going to start with our first round of questioning.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Good morning.

Do Canadians have a right to privacy?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Can you give us examples of the software that's been used by the Government of Canada to spy on Canadians?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

As I've described, these types of digital forensic tools are able to retrieve information from devices, from computers, to see information that may have been deleted or not deleted. They are able to obtain information, including personal information, which is why in situations where they're used and directed toward individuals, whether it's employees or in other circumstances affecting their privacy, a privacy impact assessment should be done.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Can the software that the government is using unlock a locked smart phone?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

My understanding is that they could in certain instances.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Can it access password-protected laptops and iPads?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

My understanding is that it can. These questions should be asked of the institutions as well.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

In terms of the personal information that could be accessed, can you give us an idea of what the range of that personal information would include?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

Personal information could be the data that's contained on this: information, the files that are on that device and other types of use, whether something was deleted or not deleted or whether a website was accessed. These are tools that have important capabilities. That is why, in situations where they're being used to target individuals or to investigate individuals, this is where we would expect to see privacy impact assessments being conducted, so that these things can be assessed and mitigated.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Photos, text messages, direct messages, search history—they're all accessible using these tools.

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

Our understanding is that they could be—absolutely.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Can the tools being employed by the government track the movement of Canadians?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

Track the movement of Canadians...?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

That's their physical location in real time or their physical location history.

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

Typically, these types of devices will not be used remotely with the device not being in the possession of the investigator. You would have that device in your possession. That was one of the distinctions between those and the on-device, the ODITs, or the spyware, where you can access the device with the individual not knowing that you have it and not being in possession of the device.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Let's be clear: The spyware being used, once the device is in the possession of the government, can retrieve information, even deleted information, but there are remote capabilities as well where software can be covertly installed and then used to track the location and the use of a device.

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

If we're talking about digital forensic tools, which is what we're talking about in this context, they can be used to acquire digital evidence, recover deleted files, analyze files of interest and create a timeline of interests and events. They almost always require the physical access to the device.

That's the distinction between what is spyware or ODITs, where you could do that remotely, without the knowledge of the individuals. They're different tools, but they still nonetheless have important capabilities.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

How many government departments have this capability?

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

I don't know of all the departments that would have it, but certainly from the reporting, 13 were identified as having those tools. We followed up with them and have obtained information.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Is the only way that you or your office would be aware of the intention to use, or that a department had, this capability is if government departments were each individually required to complete a PIA, a privacy impact assessment, in advance?

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

In many cases that's correct, because we don't know what a department is doing unless they advise us or unless they consult us. The policy of the Treasury Board requires it, but it's not a legal obligation. My recommendation is that it should be. It is always better for the department, for Canadians and for my office when that proactive reach-out is done from the department so that we can provide our input, we can flag risks and Canadians can see that this is happening.

Some of these tools can be used appropriately—there are good reasons for it—but we need that privacy check. We need that assessment.