Evidence of meeting #102 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.
To follow up, Mr. Walker, when did you acquire these technologies?
11:20 a.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
My understanding, and I will turn to my colleague for confirmation, is that it was in 2013 as part of the creation of the digital forensics—at the time computer forensics—program in the enforcement branch of the ECCC.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
That's interesting. Maybe we should ask the previous Treasury Board to come in to answer some of these questions.
I've been asking questions...and I will turn to each of you, one by one.
What, in your opinion, is the importance of having a privacy impact assessment?
11:20 a.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
From an Environment and Climate Change Canada perspective—and I will turn to my colleague again to provide further details—the importance is to make sure that we have the rigours in place to ensure the proportionality of the tools we're using and that we have appropriate measures in place to protect the information.
Ms. Rogers.
11:20 a.m.
Hannah Rogers Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
Yes, I'd add that we have a number of safeguards in place. The information that is gathered using these tools is only accessed by highly trained officers in very few numbers.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
My apologies. My question was what the importance is, in your opinion, of having a privacy impact assessment.
11:20 a.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
We take the privacy of all Canadians very seriously.
As Mr. Walker mentioned, we have a PIA under way at the moment and we will continue to complete that work. We expect the PIA that relates to our operational activities to be completed in this next coming year.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
11:20 a.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
At the time of the development of the program, it was viewed as a natural extension, and there was not an intent to collect personal information.
As Ms. Rogers mentioned, we have a specialized team that works on the computer forensics itself, which is separated entirely from the investigators on the file, so there is a wall in between the two pieces of information. The digital forensics experts are trained to seek out the exact information that is being sought under the court order and to disregard any personal information that is being collected.
At the time, and this would precede both of us, the understanding was that, because this was not intended to collect or store personal information, it might not have been required. We have since, out of an abundance of caution and starting in 2022, determined that with the modernization of our activities in the Environment and Climate Change Canada enforcement branch, there is value in conducting privacy impact assessments across the range of our activities.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thanks very much.
Are you surveilling Canadians at large?
11:20 a.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
We are not surveilling Canadians at large. There are occasions, as with any operational law enforcement organization, when we will monitor certain sites where we expect non-compliance to occur. For instance, in the case of the Migratory Birds Convention Act and the regulations that are associated with this, if someone has laid bait in a hunting zone within the 14 days prior to a hunting season's beginning, it's important for our officers, when a physical presence may serve as a deterrent, to observe more discreetly in order to determine who is engaged in non-compliant activity.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thanks very much.
Turning to Mr. Ryan and Mr. Napier, I have the same question.
What's your opinion of the importance of a privacy impact assessment?
11:20 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Perhaps I can start. It's to manage risk, to inform operations in process and to, of course, protect privacy above all.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Why did you not fulfill the PIA requirements when they were necessary?
11:20 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Much like my colleagues from ECCC, these are legacy programs that predate many of our current rules and policies. They were seen as an extension of what we had conducted in the past. In fact, these tools are more surgical in the sense that they can direct us to the files we're looking for instead of having to comb through paper files, where you would basically be privy to information you wouldn't otherwise need.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
11:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We absolutely are in the fishery but not with these tools.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Can you expand on that a little bit? What does that mean?
11:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Fishery and Ocean fishery officers, some 550 of them, are on the water and conducting surveillance of the activities that are occurring there through more traditional means of patrols and inspections, but these tools are not part of that tool box for them.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I'm talking specifically about the digital forensic technologies we're talking about.
Are you surveilling Canadians through this technology, sir?
11:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We absolutely are not.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
That's good to hear.
Are there instances when you do need to use these tools? Obviously, you've acquired them. What are those instances?
11:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
For us, it's all in relation to verifying compliance under warrant. For us, when moving from inspection to investigation, we use these tools to collect evidence and follow the evidentiary process. We use judicial authority with a warrant, where the warrant provides strict guidance and direction on the types of information we have access to and that governs our process and the use of these tools.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Are individuals aware that these forensic tools are being used for that?
11:25 a.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
They absolutely are, because they have been served the warrant.