Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 8th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

In typical Liberal fashion, they often love to blame previous administrations, notwithstanding the fact that they've been in government for almost nine years. They can never accept their own failings.

This question is for both entities. Thinking back on the evidence I have heard, both your organizations have had this device and software for almost 11 years now. I would think that, within that time frame, you've probably conducted hundreds, if not thousands, of investigations using the device and software.

Is that fair to say, Mr. Walker?

[Donald Walker]

While it is true that we have conducted a large number of investigations, only 45 of these in the past 11 years have used the computer forensics tools we're discussing.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Napier, it's good to see you again.

[Brent Napier]

It's always a pleasure, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

What's your response?

[Brent Napier]

I couldn't give you an exact number, but I know that over the last number of years it's been about 50 cases per year.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

You also understand that the directive by the Treasury Board was not optional. A directive means it must be done.

You've confirmed to Madame Bureau of the CBC that notwithstanding her investigation...which was a great investigation. We wouldn't even know about this—Canadians wouldn't know about this and parliamentarians wouldn't know about this—but for the good actions by Professor Light and the CBC to uncover this scandal. You've confirmed with her that you've never used a PIA on any of those investigations you've identified. Is that correct?

[Brent Napier]

That's for the tools. There's a process-level PIA and then there are the tools themselves. There's a differentiation.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You confirm that you've never used a PIA.

[Brent Napier]

We have PIAs for the larger program, but we haven't adapted it—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Right.

Mr. Walker—no PIAs as well. Is that correct?

[Donald Walker]

It is correct that we have not had a privacy impact assessment for the use of this tool.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

You know that Cellebrite, one of the manufacturers of this software, makes it abundantly clear that it must be used with the consent of the person you are surveilling. You may be opposed to the concept of spyware, but that's exactly what you're doing. You are spying on Canadians and/or your employees.

I'd like to hear from you, Mr. Napier and Mr. Walker, very quickly. What is your definition of consent?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It has to be really quick, please, both of you.

[Brent Napier]

It's court-ordered consent, or it could be a witness who provides some form of electronic device. Even in those cases, we still seek a court order to access them.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Mr. Walker...?

[Donald Walker]

Based on our procurement from the manufacturer, it requires consent or a court order. We would only operate under a court order. Once we have moved from an inspection into an investigation, we would not necessarily ask the regulatee to provide information that would be self-incriminating voluntarily.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's it. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Ms. Khalid, I'll add a little bit extra to your two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

I have two questions for each of you. First, under what circumstances did you acquire this forensic technology 10 years ago under Stephen Harper's government?

[Donald Walker]

I will pass it to my colleague shortly.

At the time we procured it in 2013, the circumstances were that many of our regulatees had moved from paper storage of documents into electronic storage of documents. That meant that, in order to retrieve the information we might get out of a filing cabinet in previous times, we actually needed to gain access to electronic devices to develop the evidence necessary to pursue the investigation.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Napier.

[Brent Napier]

It's very similar. When committing an offence with technology, that technology then becomes subject to these tools. It becomes evidence. It collects evidence. It's not unlike a filing cabinet. This is the new filing cabinet. In order to access that filing cabinet, which could have a lock on it, even in old times, we need these tools. That's how we use them.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Mr. Napier, when do you expect to have this PIA completed?

[Brent Napier]

Like our colleagues from ECCC, it will be this coming fiscal year. We've already made some headway in that direction.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Mr. Walker...?