Evidence of meeting #103 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
February 13th, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'll come back to the subject that I think we were going to gather here to talk about today, which is whether these tools are taking information and using it in a way that nobody anticipated.
I'll start with Shared Services Canada.
Mr. Jones and Mr. Mills, it's nice to see you again.
Shared Services Canada was created, as I remember it, in 2011. It was created out of different departments. Was the technology at issue in the possession of Shared Services Canada in 2011?
President, Shared Services Canada
The technology we're talking about would have been transferred as part of the amalgamation of the 43, along with the procurement authority to amalgamate those together. We inherited the tools that we're talking about.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
These tools are long-standing. They're not new. You haven't bought them since 2015. They were there before 2015.
President, Shared Services Canada
We've continually renewed the contracts, but those tools were in place during the creation of SSC.
Liberal
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Can you advise us on whether there is any mechanism through which you use those tools when the device itself that you're extracting the information from is not in your possession?
President, Shared Services Canada
We don't use those tools in anything other than a physically separate laboratory, where we have the device in our possession. It's a government-issued device, as well.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Right. Then, when you take the device, are you putting spyware and malware on it so that you can spy on that device afterwards?
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Are you securing the device only if you have a warrant or if you have the consent of the person involved?
President, Shared Services Canada
When we perform an administrative investigation, we do that with the full knowledge...the person knows there's an administration investigation, but it is a government device, so we do it under that authority from the Financial Administration Act.
These are never the first tools we use, though. We go to these tools only when they're necessary to confirm or disprove allegations that have been made.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
The average Canadian sitting in Winnipeg or Montreal or Vancouver can know with certainty that Shared Services Canada is not spying on their phone right now.
President, Shared Services Canada
Absolutely. That would be completely contrary to our mandate and code.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Perfect.
Let me ask the same question to the Transportation Safety Board. Can you please assure me that you're not spying on Canadians with the extraction tools we're talking about?
Kathy Fox
We are absolutely not. We are using the tool in the context of our mandate to conduct our investigations, and primarily with the consent of the owner.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
It would be with consent or presumably a warrant of some type.
Kathy Fox
We can issue a warrant after a request to a justice of the peace. We've never had to use a warrant for that, because most of the time we get it through consent or on site or through first responders.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
It would be the same in your case, that the extraction process would require you to have the device in your possession. Is that correct?
Kathy Fox
That's correct. We have the device in our possession. It's downloaded to a stand-alone computer. It's not on a network. It's at our laboratory. It's password-protected as well, as there is very limited access to it.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
You don't download software onto the device. You don't put malware on. You don't put spyware on. You don't put anything on the device that will allow you, after the person resumes having control of the device, to know what they're doing or spy on them in any way.
Kathy Fox
Absolutely not. We do not keep the information that we download, except for what is absolutely required for the investigation, and we return the device intact to its owner or the owner's representative.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I imagine in both cases, because I know it's Shared Services Canada but in your case as well, that those who have access to the information are a small, limited group of people who have been properly trained on what they're supposed to do in terms of protecting privacy rights.
