Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Mario Mainville]

I think the answer is yes, because we worked with newer, substantially modified.... We don't work on an island. We consulted with the Department of Justice on whether our program is modified to the point where we needed a PIA, and we don't.

We make the decision with the information we have, so more clarity....

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

If I could, I think the challenge is that, by allowing each department to opt in or opt out of the PIA, we're creating an unnecessarily conspiratorial outlook on the way in which this stuff is used.

When I hear the explanation about there being a crash and there needing to be a forensic audit of the data, that makes complete sense. There would be a lot of rationale for why you would use this information. I am not here today believing that you're spying on all Canadians or that there's some kind of nefarious thing with this technology.

I believe that to be the case with the on-device, by the way, but that's a whole other conversation.

Pertaining to this study—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Green, you're over.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's okay. I'll have another round.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That concludes our first round. We're going to our second round now, starting with five minutes for Mr. Brock.

You'll have two and a half minutes coming up there, Mr. Green.

Mr. Brock, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon to the witnesses. Thank you for your attendance. I apologize that I wasn't able to hear the opening statements that, I trust, some of you probably did.

I want to focus on this ArriveCAN scandal that seems to be dominating the House of Commons and Canadians from coast to coast. In following up from my colleague Mr. Kurek, I'm going to focus in on you, Mr. Jones. It appears that you have some expertise in this particular area when it comes to technology, data and things of that nature.

At the heart of the scandal—and this may be news to you—is information. A lingering question the Auditor General laboured with is that, despite all the material she received from the CBSA—which didn't amount to a lot, given the shoddy paperwork and record-keeping—she was unable to determine who chose this two-person firm, which received, essentially, $20 million of taxpayer funds for doing absolutely nothing other than connecting the CBSA with IT professionals.

We have evidence to suggest that information was withheld from the Auditor General, and the information centres around one particular individual by the name of Minh Doan, who happens to be the Government of Canada chief technology officer. One would think, just by having a label of “chief technology officer”, that person would possess the necessary skills to retain records, but at the heart of this, four years' worth of relevant emails—during the pandemic, when the cost of this “arrive scam” scandal ballooned to over $60 million—constituting close to 1,700 emails in total, just mysteriously disappeared.

How can that happen?

[Scott Jones]

Without knowing the circumstances, I can come up with a lot of different scenarios in the IT world. It could be as something as simple as—and I've had this happen to me—the hard drive on my laptop failed and I lost my email. Without the specific circumstances, I don't know how to answer your question.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That's been a lingering question. He offered no explanation as to why he could not retrieve four years' worth of emails. Despite his status—he was the vice-president of the CBSA at the time, as well as the chief information officer for the CBSA—he was unable to explain that discrepancy, so the CBSA president was unable to really shed any light as to the content—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Brock, we have a point of order from Ms. Khalid. I've stopped your time. You have two minutes left.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

We're just questioning relevance. I understand that the topic Mr. Brock is highlighting is under study at a number of different committees. We are here on a very specific issue about the surveillance of government employees through government technologies within departments. I would prefer, and I think that the committee would appreciate it, if Mr. Brock stuck to that topic.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

As I've said in the past, Ms. Khalid, I do give a lot of latitude to members to ask their questions, and I expect that they're going to come back to the topic at hand. I'm certain that Mr. Brock will. He's done it before.

The floor is yours. You have two minutes, Mr. Brock. Go ahead, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, because I certainly don't frame my questions on the preference of the Liberal Party of Canada. I know they want to shut this down. I know it's important for them to silence us—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, that is absolutely unreasonable—come on.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you for the point of order.

Mr. Brock, please continue. I did stop your time. I'm starting it again. You have a minute and 50 seconds.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Jones, I want to know what tools, potentially, the RCMP, which may be charged with the responsibility of investigating criminality surrounding this arrive scam.... To hearken back to my days as a Crown attorney, what's jumping off the page are allegations of fraud and breach of trust by a public official.

In your professional opinion, sir, what sorts of forensics tools would be available to the RCMP to retrieve four years' worth of relevant emails from the vice-president of the CBSA?

[Scott Jones]

I honestly have never been privy to any of the investigative techniques that the RCMP uses. We've always kept them at arm's length, as the IT service provider.

We certainly provide it with base IT—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

What kinds of tools would you adopt?

For instance, if Erin O'Gorman, the president of the CBSA, actually took her job seriously and wanted to retrieve these emails, what sorts of tools could you adopt?

[Scott Jones]

If my colleague was asking for advice, certainly that's what we've established these contracts for in terms of the tooling that's required to retrieve information from government-owned devices. There are a variety of tools, depending on the type of device that would be used.

I don't have a product list in front of me. I've actually never used these tools in my career.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Is it possible to retrieve four years' worth of emails?

[Scott Jones]

How you'd have to go about that depends on the circumstances and where they are located. It's always very dependent on the circumstances.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It's case-specific.

[Scott Jones]

Yes, very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Ms. Khalid, go ahead for five minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate it.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

While the Conservatives try to figure out whether they think surveilling government phones is a good thing or a bad thing based on what they think is good for them for chasing headlines, I think perhaps I'll turn to you.

I would ask you one by one, and I'll start with Mr. Jones.

What do you think is the purpose of a privacy impact assessment and how does that impact the work you do in your department?