Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks.

I had a quick chat with Michael, and I understand that there have been some discussions here. I think informal is certainly best, and it doesn't have to cost taxpayers a penny. We can do this.

I would just note on the record as well that, if there was information that became relevant to the study, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us to request that the RCMP provide it in a follow-up. Although the tour itself wouldn't necessarily be on the record, certainly the information that we learn could be included in that future report. I appreciate that the RCMP has extended this opportunity for us to help understand these tools.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

I'm sensing that there is consensus among us for this to be an informal trip.

Mr. Villemure, go ahead.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to officially introduce the following motion, notice of which I gave last week:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h), the committee undertake a study of misinformation and disinformation and their impact on the work of parliamentarians, that the committee devote the next three available meetings to this study, that the committee invite experts in the field of misinformation and disinformation and that the committee report its observations and recommendations to the House.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Your motion is admissible, since you previously gave the committee notice of it.

Would you like to say something about the motion, Mr. Villemure?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Of course, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

In reading prospective studies, one sees that, among the concerns of current leaders and governments, misinformation and disinformation now present a risk almost as great as climate change.

In Parliament, we have to make informed decisions. Consequently, we too are likely the target of misinformation and disinformation. So to assist the committee and Parliament in making more informed decisions, I invite us to conduct this study together with experts on the basis of the public interest. This will help us move forward and enable all concerned parliamentarians to do a better job.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

I just want to clarify one point, since the committee's business has already been established and we are starting a study that we have already decided to take.

If I correctly understand you, Mr. Villemure, the study you propose would be conducted during future meetings. Is that in fact the case?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right.

Next I have Ms. Khalid followed by Mr. Green.

I see your hand, Mr. Barrett.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Through you, I'd really like to thank Monsieur Villemure for bringing this motion forward. I sit on the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association as vice-chair. In our discussions amongst Commonwealth countries, this is the number one issue amongst parliamentarians across the world. How do we deal with misinformation and disinformation? How does it impact our democratic institutions? How does it impact how we make decisions?

I 100% agree with Monsieur Villemure as to how important this issue is. I would hope that we would spend a little bit more time than just three meetings on this. I think we need to do a deep dive into how we can make sure that governments are prepared for the changing face of technologies, for the changing face of digital media, and how it impacts the spread of information and misinformation and disinformation. I can come up with at least 10 witnesses on this issue who I think would be great contributors in terms of coming up with recommendations on how we as the Canadian government can deal with this issue, not only to provide safety and security for Canadians in the information they are absorbing at such a fast rate nowadays but also to ensure that the information we are taking in is accurate, honest and objective and is not nefarious in its objectives, as well.

I would really appreciate it if, with the consensus of the committee, we could say “at least” three meetings on this. After those three meetings, we could come back to it and see how many more witnesses we have who would be interested to speak to this and how much more information or areas within this topic we need to dive into a little bit deeper. We could re-evaluate where we would like to go with this study.

I really congratulate Monsieur Villemure for bringing up this very important topic. I think we really need to do that deep dive. I would friendlily propose that we say “at least” three meetings and re-evaluate at the end of those three meetings.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'll take that as a formal amendment. It's difficult to amend motions on a friendly basis.

I'll take that as a formal amendment and seek consensus on the change Ms. Khalid is proposing, that we have “at least three” meetings rather than “three”.

We're still on the amendment, if anybody wants to speak to it.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett, on the amendment that would change “three” meetings to “at least three”.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes. Three's fine. I just wanted clarification also on the motion that's being amended.

Is it the understanding that as it's worded—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The motion says, “next three available meetings”. We do have meetings scheduled, which I will touch on after we dispose of this, but “next three available” is what Monsieur Villemure is proposing.

I'll seek consensus on the amendment, if there's no further discussion.

(Amendment agreed to)

We're now back to the main motion as amended.

Mr. Green, go ahead.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Again, I appreciate the good work of my friend from the Bloc, René Villemure, for setting the course of our next study.

I'm just going to put my cards on the table and say that I am satisfied with the outcomes of the study we're currently in. I get a sense that we could ask eight more departments and get very similar answers. I am satisfied that this is not on-device information technology or spyware or malware. I am satisfied that it is used within the regulations of the respective mandates of the departments for investigative tools and for audit tools. I'm satisfied with the parameters in which they're using it. I'm not satisfied with the lack of the PIA, which I've expressed.

Having said all that, Mr. Chair, how many more meetings were scheduled for that particular study? Would it benefit the committee to perhaps move a motion to direct the analyst to begin a draft report on the work we've done on it to date?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I was going to update you. This is perfect timing.

We have one more meeting on this. You expressed a desire to have the unions come in and discuss this in terms of the public service. We've arranged to have the Canadian Association of Professional Employees and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada come in on Thursday. Unfortunately, PSAC has declined to come in.

Those witnesses are coming in. One witness that Monsieur Villemure wanted to see was the source of the CBC/Radio-Canada article. He is coming in on Thursday as well. Thank you for reminding me of this. The President of the Treasury Board has committed to March 21. That will effectively tie this study closed. That's where we're at.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I guess my next question would be when the next three available dates would be.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The only thing I can see right now would probably be February 29 as the start of this particular motion, if it does get passed. On February 27, we have the commissioner of the RCMP coming in on SNC-Lavalin.

Just give me a second.

The clerk just reminded me again. I was talking to Alexandra about this. We have the RCMP commissioner coming in on February 27, and then we have the draft report on the social media study that will be available by February 19. As it stands right now, I'm calculating probably up to three meetings on that. It could be less. I'm hoping it'll be less. There are a few recommendations there.

Hang on there, Damien. I'm on a roll here.

That's where we stand right now. There are the unions and Mr. Villemure's guest on Thursday, the break week, the RCMP commissioner on February 27 and, on February 29, I anticipate that we're going to start the draft report on the social media study. Then, on March 21, it's the President of the Treasury Board.

It's not likely that we're going to get to this. We have break weeks in the month of March as well. We may not get to this until we're back from the majority of those break weeks. Is that okay? Good.

Damien.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

You answered my question.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You answered my question as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's why I was on a roll. The only problem is that I didn't do it in French, René, and I'm sorry.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Well, Damien was interrupting.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Rudely.... He was rudely interrupting.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We are on the main motion as amended. Is there consensus on the main motion as amended, or do we want to go to a vote? Are we fine?

(Motion as amended agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you for introducing that motion, Mr. Villemure.

I had—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Chair, it's national Kindness Week. I would just like to make note of that.

As the House of Commons sponsor for national Kindness Week, I would just like to take this moment to wish everyone a happy national Kindness Week. With this motion passing unanimously, it's a good sign of the wonderful possibility of our great country.