Evidence of meeting #104 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was use.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
And you still have Napster.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
No. I have Apple Music. It's $14.95 a month. I know that.
Mr. Green, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm just happy to be able to report that I downloaded the first Wu-Tang album on Napster 20-plus years ago. Now they're doing retirement reunion tours, so here we are.
I want to pick up from where my colleague left off on what I think is a generally accepted notion of informed consent.
Would you agree that your members—understanding the policy directive of the Treasury Board that technology implemented within the federal government must undergo a privacy impact assessment—would have a reasonable expectation that all technologies would have undergone that process, as per the direction of the Treasury Board?
Would that be a reasonable expectation?
12:40 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I would disagree, because of the policies that exist, which say you can use it for personal use. They haven't been clarified.
I pose to you, if deputy ministers aren't following their own directives, how are the employees—
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I want to make sure you understand what I'm asking.
I'm suggesting there's a directive from Treasury Board. We've heard testimony that departments are not following the directive, so would your membership...? Understanding that it is a policy that this should happen, this ought to happen, is it reasonable for departments to assume that it has happened, even though we've heard that it hasn't?
12:40 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Yes, if there's a directive.... Treasury Board says all the time that there are directives that need to be followed. I expect that departments should be following those directives. They are the senior leaders.
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
Our members do have that expectation. They feel their trust has been completely breached, because of the violation of a very clear policy on this. They then have an anxiety around using devices to which they have a reasonable expectation of privacy as laid out in policy.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Do you think the Office of the Privacy Commissioner should perhaps be reviewing, in a default way, all of these technologies, particularly the ones that could be surreptitiously collecting data?
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I bring that up because you talked about removing authority.
Should they have the authority in the first place?
12:40 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Whether it lies with the Privacy Commissioner or deputy ministers in their department.... You have seen with the 13 departments that they scrambled to give you information, they scrambled to know where it was being used, and they scrambled to provide you with testimony. There should be clear accountability at the deputy minister level, or it should reside with the Privacy Commissioner.
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
The Office of the Privacy Commissioner is the proper place to do this. In a lot of cases, and in the case of Treasury Board directives, deputy ministers are left with their own discrepancy and their own decision-making powers, when it's convenient for the employer, and then it's—
12:45 p.m.
President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
Yes, it's a bit of a Wild West in terms of consistency in the application of policies, except when it's convenient for the—
12:45 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
We don't know of any grievances, but in order for us to file a grievance, we have to know that the act is taking place.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's correct.
Would a lack of grievance be a permission for them to breach the Privacy Act?
12:45 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Absolutely not.
You can't grieve something if you don't know it's happening. The minute you understand that it's happening, you can make your grievance, but if you don't know it's happening, you can't protect your rights.
12:45 p.m.
President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
A grievance could be something that could move the needle a little bit on this. We're looking at ways to enforce our members' rights in this case, but the case is that the policies exist and should have enforcement rights built in at that management level.
12:45 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Yes, 100%.
12:45 p.m.
President, The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
The notes I had for the Privacy Act were that the guidelines had to be clear around what, when, and how new or modified requirements needed new privacy assessments, and when current ones needed to be updated. We also need to make sure it is enforced. These software tools need to be assessed before being used, and all less invasive methods must be considered beforehand.