Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You did not question the Prime Minister. You said you looked at the information available. In your opinion, it was enough to decide not to go any further. I am not a police officer, but in the end, among the four people you questioned, the key people you should have met with were not included.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Mr. Chair, I would say that on the contrary, the people we questioned were key witnesses to determine the elements of the offence. That is what dictated the direction we took.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Throughout the entire investigation, while following your usual protocols, were there problems that undermined the flow of the investigation? Without saying the word “frustration,” I get the impression that something, without naming it, did not go as you would have liked.

In any investigation, no matter what it is, it seems to me that the person at the heart of the investigation must be questioned.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Mr. Chair, we try to determine if the elements of the offence were established. We then proceed step by step with key witnesses and assess the importance of the information, taking into account the elements we are looking for.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Isn’t the Prime Minister a key witness?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

We must examine the situation based on the information we have. The Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner has a specific task, which is to look at the situation on an ethical level. As for us, we look at the situation on a criminal level. If a criminal offence was not committed, we do not move on to the next steps.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

The Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner often said here that he validates compliance with a code. He has to say if an act is compliant or not. Moreover, whether it is compliant or not on a criminal level, it is one indicator among others. It cannot be the only indicator.

Right?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Basically, ethical issues can sometimes be an indicator of criminal behaviour, but not necessarily in every situation.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I completely agree with that. What the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner assessed is not what you assessed. You looked at two different things. He looked at compliance with a code, and he found that the acts were not in compliance with that code. That does not mean it was criminal. In your case, lack of compliance with the code does not guarantee the results of an RCMP investigation.

In the investigations the RCMP usually conducts, for example in a case of theft, do you talk to the suspect, or do you only collect the information you deem sufficient?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Every investigation starts with a complaint filed by a complainant. We then follow established procedure. We collect the information and evidence required to determine whether we can lay charges or obtain documents required by the court to get a warrant.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Did the investigation by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner cause you problems?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

At first glance, I would say no. Keep in mind that there are two distinct mandates in this case. You said it yourself, Mr. Villemure, there is the ethical aspect and the criminal aspect, and the thresholds are different.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Very well.

As legislators, what could we do to help you gain or maintain the public’s trust in the RCMP?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

According to the most recent national surveys I read, the public’s trust in the organization is better than it was in the past. Like anything else, when conducting an investigation, especially one of this nature, we must stay within certain parameters. If there is a desire to broaden them for the sake of transparency, it is not up to me to debate it.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I understand that.

We often discuss cabinet confidences here. Ultimately, we are all uncomfortable with the subject. We sometimes get the impression it’s used for purposes other than what cabinet confidence should cover. In other words, when it comes to cabinet confidences, it’s a broad brush. That is what undermines trust. It is not the fact that these confidences exist, but how they are used.

It often seems to us that, when it comes to the current government, its usage is more liberal than less. There is a lot of debate about the relevance of assessing the current state of cabinet confidences. You answered earlier that more transparency would help you.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

The interpretation people have of cabinet confidence is what differs.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What is your interpretation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I will reserve my comments, Mr. Chair.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Very well, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Mr. Green, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

In a tangential way, I'm going to pick up where my good friend from the Bloc left off.

I refer to the duty of candour jurisprudence in parliamentary proceedings, which suggests that standing committees constituted by the House of Commons are the grand inquest of the nation and have the power to send for documents, people and any information pertaining to their studies.

I want to get back to the timelines, because it is an important thing for me—discovery—to assure the public there was nothing nefarious happening with the allegations being bandied about, both at this committee and out in the public.

I want to get very clear, Commissioner. I need for you to provide me with a clear answer. The decision was made not to pursue charges. When precisely was that?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

There were no further investigation activities as of spring 2021. As to the exact time and date when I read the report as deputy commissioner.... I don't recall the exact time it was submitted and when I read it.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

When you read that, would you have reported it up to your superior—the commissioner at the time, Brenda Lucki?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would have gone through it and had a discussion with whoever was directly responsible for the program, and then discussed it with the commissioner.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Would all of the decisions along the way have been reported up to the commissioner of the time?