Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You also took into account other elements besides the one Mr. Brock offered: for example, that nobody ever told Ms. Wilson-Raybould that it was anything other than her decision as to whether or not to do the deferred prosecution agreement or, as we call it, the remediation agreement. Is that correct?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

From my recollection, that's correct.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Again, to tie this up, my colleague Mr. Green also made some interesting and very excellent points. Normally, the RCMP would not disclose that it was doing an investigation of someone, nor would it then confirm that it closed that investigation if the decision was not to lay a charge. Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We don't normally go out, after an investigation, to say that there are charges or no charges. When the documents are presented in court and are in the public domain, that is when we'll comment.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Right. Normally, you would not disclose to the Canadian public that this person is being investigated, or that you closed the investigation and are not proceeding with it. Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That's correct.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

This was outside of your normal procedures. You wouldn't normally have these issues, because normally you wouldn't be doing any of that. Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That's correct.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I look forward to seeing the documents you're going to provide, based on Mr. Green's questions.

Finally, there have been many allegations. Can we confirm that the Prime Minister was not necessarily the one person of interest in this investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

When you look at the report, you'll see that there were people from the PMO, the justice department, and others who were interviewed.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

The idea that this one person was the centre of everything, that he was the person you were looking at and that you decided, through political pressure, to close that investigation is false. Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We had no political pressure on this file.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I imagine my time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

While it's top of mind, because Mr. Housefather brought it up, as well as Mr. Green, are you able to provide those timelines by Friday, Commissioner, or do you need a little more time?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would need more time.

Rough timelines, yes, but then we're referring to emails and correspondence. Let me go back to my team and then I'll be more than happy to follow up and say how long it's going to take us. This is like a mini ATIP request where I have to ask our team how much information is there.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We do want to make sure that we have that information as soon as reasonably practical.

Mr. Villemure, I give you the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner Duheme, what is your understanding of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner’s mandate?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

The Commissioner is responsible for everything to do not only with ethics, but also with the behaviour of all elected officials, I think. However, I am not familiar with his exact mandate.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Could there be some confusion between the mandate of one and that of the other if one isn’t familiar with them?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Are you referring to the RCMP Commissioner’s mandate regarding criminal investigations and that of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes, exactly.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I think the investigative parameters are different. As for investigations, we show an offence occurred by basing ourselves on the Criminal Code, which is not the case when it comes to ethical matters.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to table a motion inviting the former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to come and testify. I do not want to waste the committee members’ time by doing it right now. I will do it at the end of the meeting instead. I give you notice right now that we will ask Mr. Mario Dion to come and shed light on the grey area between these two mandates.

Do you agree?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes, I do.

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have little time left, so I will conclude by coming back to the question I asked Mr. Pincince earlier.

This situation attracted a lot of news coverage everywhere. I will not ask you if you would have acted differently, because the answer will be no. In retrospect, did you learn something from it all?