Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I had to base this assessment on the totality of the information we obtained—again, from the review of documentary evidence that we obtained from these witnesses and from the testimony that they provided to the RCMP, and of course these were supplemented by all the publicly available information that was provided out there.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Commissioner, you stated that you were very comfortable with the RCMP's decision not to pursue criminal charges in the SNC-Lavalin affair, while confirming that you did not have access to cabinet confidences that you'd requested. Can you explain why you were very comfortable?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Could you provide a very quick response, please?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It was based on the final report that I received, and knowing the professionalism of our folks at sensitive and international investigations. I'm comfortable to say that we did everything we could to gain access to as much information as possible within the confines of the regulations.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Duheme.

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

Mr. Villemure, you have two and half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Duheme, is there something you would have liked to obtain in order to allow you to pursue the investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As Mr. Pincince said earlier, after targeting the two potential charges, we needed to find certain elements of information before charges could be laid. In any investigation, we want to obtain information that will enable us to establish that the conditions defining the offence have been met. If we don’t have all the necessary information for charges to be laid, we at least want to have enough information to obtain legal documents, such as a search warrant, to obtain the required information.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

We often heard about cabinet confidentiality at the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Do you believe that, for the purposes of a police investigation, we should improve access to a minister’s confidential cabinet documents? At present, you have absolutely no access to them.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That is indeed the case, but that decision is not up to me.

Even if we had submitted a request that was accepted, I don’t know what information we would have obtained.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

However, our committee has the power to make recommendations.

Do you think the committee should recommend greater access to confidential cabinet documents?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Greater transparency, if information about what’s going on can be disclosed, would certainly be an improvement. It goes back to what we said earlier about public trust and ethics.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

In fact, in several other cases, we saw preventive redaction that was fairly extensive. Obviously, public trust is damaged as a result.

So you would agree that we should recommend greater access to confidential cabinet documents.

Is that so?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I have no issue with you making that recommendation in the interest of transparency.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

In hindsight, when you look at everything that happened around SNC-Lavalin and the allegations surrounding Mr. Trudeau, are there things you would have done differently?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I will refer the question to Mr. Pincince.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Mr. Chair, in this case, we proceeded step by step, according to the information we had at the time. So it would be purely speculative on my part to determine anything else based on the available information.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So you would do the same thing.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

I’d like to emphasize that in every investigation, we proceed in the same manner. We rely on the available evidence.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to try to go through this.

In 2019, you applied for an order in council disclosure that started an interview process with key witnesses. Of the key witnesses, did you directly interview the Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Yes, we did, Mr. Chair.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In the course of your questioning, was Jody Wilson-Raybould able to provide you with all the information you were asking of her in those interviews?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

Again, we had to follow the parameters of the waiver and authorization we obtained.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In other words, is it safe to say that, in that interview with the former AG and Minister of Justice, she was unable to disclose information pertinent to the foundation of an investigation for potential charges, or perhaps documents that would be attained through the courts?