Evidence of meeting #105 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sergeant Frédéric Pincince  Staff Sergeant, Sensitive and International Investigations, Federal Policing, Ontario Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

1 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Given the nature of what's been happening in the media and the questions that have been asked today, does either of you feel that it's appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition or for other political officials to attempt to interfere with the RCMP's independent work in investigations like this?

1 p.m.

S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince

Mr. Chair, we always welcome any type of information from anyone in relation to a matter. Of course, we'll assess that information, and we'll take whatever steps are necessary based on our assessment or investigation of the matter.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I've seen allegations of the RCMP being at the beck and call of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Is that true?

1 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

As I said, I have briefed the Prime Minister on maybe a couple of files since I've been in a senior position. The RCMP is not politically driven. We're independent. The fact is that the Leader of the Opposition can write a letter to ask for an investigation, and the fact that we're doing it demonstrates that. We're not politically driven.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

I'll take this last opportunity to thank you for all of your work and to thank all the women and men in the RCMP for the excellent work they do in our communities.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

1 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will try to make good use of my time.

Mr. Duheme, my colleague Mr. Green talked earlier about cabinet confidences, which greatly intrigues me. He said there was a kind of shield between the Prime Minister and the RCMP in the current case. Or at least, he said it was like a shield.

If we want to make changes to the rules regarding cabinet confidences, we certainly cannot do it through regulation, because it is a constitutional matter, unless I am mistaken. Neither one of us is a lawyer. Nonetheless, I would like to know what you think about one thing.

There needs to be a balance between changes to the rules for cabinet confidences, which is very important, and the RCMP’s needs. Do you think that’s the direction to head in? Is the juice worth the squeeze or, on the contrary, are we just going to get stuck?

1 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

Mr. Chair, basically, we have to understand why cabinet confidence rules are in place. After that, we have to extrapolate and see how it could be applied or changed. As you know, that falls within your purview.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

All right.

You’ve worked at the RCMP for quite some time. Did you often have access to cabinet confidences? If yes, was the same parameter applied, was it broader, or was it narrower?

1:05 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

Do you mean within the context of an investigation?

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Yes, that’s right.

1:05 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

In my experience, no.

Mr. Pincince, do you want to add anything?

1:05 p.m.

S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince

For some investigations, we did indeed obtain exemptions to cabinet confidences.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

In some cases, there was an exemption, and in others, there wasn’t.

1:05 p.m.

S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince

Indeed, Mr. Chair.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Can you tell us why there wasn’t one in that case?

1:05 p.m.

S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince

Again, I cannot speculate on the situation at that time.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Did you ask for an exemption?

1:05 p.m.

S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince

No, we did not in that case. The information was provided.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Okay.

Obviously, no warrant was received, in any case.

Thank you very much for your comments. They will help us reflect further on the matter.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

February 27th, 2024 / 1:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

I'm going to do something that maybe I don't do often enough, which is to provide the benefit of the doubt to police institutions and to you and the RCMP. It's pretty clear that under these circumstances, there are allegations of political interference. Under other circumstances, there could be the potential—I'm just playing this out as a hypothetical—where there could be allegations of the RCMP initiating investigations on politicians. That could also be considered political interference from the other side, from an oppositional side.

What I want to offer you today is the opportunity to just reflect on the fact that, as you've testified, the Ethics Commissioner had access to more information than you had. I think that's a hard thing—I'll just put it on the record—for Canadians to be able to digest and to look at and for our journalists to be able to digest, the fact that the Ethics Commissioner has more access than the RCMP on this matter. You may or may not recall, but it was our party, the NDP, that called for the federal government to launch a public inquiry. I know there are lots of conversations around the cost of inquiries and the powers. Certainly, we've come off the Rouleau commission with the Emergencies Act, and there are lots of people with opinions on that.

With what you have experienced and with what you have contemplated here today, would you agree that an inquiry that was granted unfettered access, including not just having the kind of constitutional direction from the House, but also having the powers for documents, for evidence and, ultimately, for judicial oversight, would be a good, non-partisan, non-political, unobstructed opportunity for us to deal with these matters of national importance when it comes to piercing the veil of cabinet confidence and the ability to pursue any types of allegations of wrongdoing?

Would a public inquiry have provided the remedy for what seems to have frustrated you in your ability to have a full investigation?

1:05 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

Mr. Chair, I would say that even with a public inquiry, I think cabinet confidence still applies. That's something you have to work out, but that's my understanding.

Again, I think cabinet confidence was set in place for a reason. I'm far from being an expert on that. I think it has to be reviewed as to why it was put in place, along with the interpretation of cabinet confidence, as I discussed with the honourable Monsieur Villemure.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

That's very helpful.

Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. Green.

With the final two-minute rounds, we're going to start with Mr. Brock, and I understand that he will be sharing his time with Mr. Cooper.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.