Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

There's something we learn as members of Parliament: You shouldn't try to do indirectly what you can't do directly. When you put out a tweet and say that the RCMP, or some other public security organization, has interviewed or not interviewed an elected official, you're basically trying to do something indirectly that you cannot do directly, in trying to direct the police to do something. I find that really scary, frightening. I find that almost Trumpesque, in terms of what the other side likes to do and how they like to tweet and comment.

We must hold the bar so high on the operational independence of the RCMP, because we do live in a democracy, and it is a foundational principle of our democracy. Wouldn't you agree on the operational independence side?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I agree, Mr. Chair.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Second, sir, your members obviously investigate, and reinvestigate if they need to, if there is new information that is provided to your organization on any file, be it organized crime, terrorist crime, cross-border crime, anything like that. Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That's correct. I mentioned that earlier, Mr. Chair.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have one minute and 42 seconds.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

With regard to the issue at hand, the laying or not laying of charges, I understand that on October 23, 2023, you mentioned to reporters that you were “very comfortable” with the RCMP's decision not to pursue any further investigation or criminal charges into the SNC-Lavalin affair.

I take it, Commissioner, that you would make that statement publicly with a high degree of comfort.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Yes, I did make that statement, as I made the statement here in front of the committee members.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

In addition, Commissioner, in terms of the resources that you have at your disposal, would you say those resources are robust to pursue investigations so that you or the folks who report to you are able to do so? Do you feel you have sufficient resources to conduct investigations, whether it's an investigation looking at public officials or at organized crime, terrorism and so forth?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As with any file, sometimes a file takes a different direction where it requires additional resources, so we prioritize the work that needs to be done and assign, on occasion, additional resources to a specific file.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

My final comment along this tangent is this. As an elected public official, you have certain responsibilities, and one is to be responsible in your comments, especially when it comes to matters where there may be ongoing investigations. To play this sort of Monday-morning quarterback.... I think it's actually a lot worse than that. I think when you are questioning the independence, and I would even say the integrity, of our police forces and the brave men and women who put on the RCMP uniform and go to the depot in Saskatchewan—in Regina, if I'm not mistaken—where they get the training and go for—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Sorbara—

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

It's very important that we maintain that operational independence.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You're 30 seconds over.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

With that, sir, again I'd like to stress the importance of operational independence.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, Mr. Sorbara, but one minute and 42 seconds turned into over two minutes.

That concludes our first round. We're going to reset the clock.

I'm going to ask our witnesses today, Mr. Duheme and Mr. Pincince, whether they are good to continue, or if they'd like a break for a couple of minutes.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We're good.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Are members of the committee fine with continuing?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We're going to start our second six-minute rounds with Mr. Cooper.

Go ahead.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

Part of the RCMP's examination was to determine whether the Prime Minister violated subsection 139(2) of the Criminal Code by committing obstruction of justice. Is that correct? That was part of the RCMP's examination.

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

That's correct, Mr. Chair.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Paragraph 19 of the RCMP investigation report states that “the strongest theory towards an offence of obstructing justice” was that the Prime Minister shuffled Jody Wilson-Raybould out of the position of Attorney General so that a new attorney general would make a different decision regarding the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin. Is that correct?

[S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince]

That's correct, Mr. Chair.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's fair to say that the RCMP did not have access to all material evidence surrounding Ms. Wilson-Raybould's being shuffled out as Attorney General. Is that correct?