Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I think, Chair, in fairness you should allow us to amend this motion and allow Mr. Wernick to provide the committee with the information he has.
I think you're trying to jam the vote, Mr. Chair, and I don't think that's—
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I know, but it's difficult when we're virtual too. In fairness to you, Chair, I recognize that it's hard to try to manage the room and those who are appearing virtually as well, but I feel as though I'm being put at a disadvantage here because I'm virtual because I'm sick this week.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
March 19th, 2024 / 1:05 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Mr. Chair, I do caution you on this, as somebody else who's.... My intention is to support the demand; my intention was to support the demand for documents.
I do believe that there ought to be procedural fairness when debating motions. I do not believe, sir, that you have provided procedural fairness for debate. I might not agree with tactics around filibustering or running out the clock, but what I am cautioning you against is creating a very dangerous precedent in this committee of having what could be viewed as a hyperpartisan chair, sir.
I would say that rolling from a unanimous consent directly into calling a vote offers no time for adequate debate and I think would cloud your ability to chair this committee on a move-forward basis. I say that respectfully as somebody who believes that you've done a good job to date, but I am concerned with the way you are handling this particular motion, even in supporting the motion.
I would ask for your indulgence to allow debate when motions are called, because the precedent you set by not allowing debate when it's called and surreptitiously calling votes shows a level of partisanship that I haven't seen in you to date, sir. I would appeal to your reconsideration of that and to allow a debate to happen. Allow that process, as in the standing procedures and courtesies within the way in which we conduct this committee.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I do appreciate that intervention.
Just for clarity, there were no hands up when I called that vote. I just want to make that very clear.
Ms. Damoff, if your hand went up a split second later and I didn't see it when I went from the unanimous consent to calling the vote, then that is what happened, okay?
I'm going to go back on some good faith.
I know you had an amendment, Ms. Damoff. I'm going to give you an opportunity to present that amendment. Then my hope is that we can go to a vote at that point and dispose of this motion, because I'm sensing that most of us...most of the committee is in agreement with what Mr. Brock has proposed.
I'm going to go back and allow you, Ms. Damoff, to put your amendment forward. Then we can deal with it. Go ahead, please.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
In the spirit of what Mr. Villemure had suggested, I would suggest removing the words “and the Privy Council Office”. That would allow Mr. Wernick to provide the documents that he has, as well as the non-existent documents between 2019 and 2024. Once we've received those and reviewed them, if we feel that we need more information, we can deal with another motion at that time.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I think what I'm suggesting respects what Mr. Villemure had suggested we do. Since we want to vote on this apparently today, I think that change.... If Mr. Brock feels that once we get that information.... As you say, if the committee feels that the information is not sufficient, then we can ask for more at that time.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you.
Ms. Damoff has proposed an amendment to remove “and the Privy Council Office”. Is there any discussion on that amendment?
Do we have consent to...?
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We don't have consent. Okay.
I don't see any further discussion.
Madam Clerk, I'm going to go to the vote on the amendment.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We're going to go to the main motion as amended.
Mr. Barrett, go ahead.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
It is fascinating that we have Liberal members who are working overtime to try to bury documents from PCO. We have Mr. Wernick, who says that this afternoon he can just email over what he has. So that satisfies that. Obviously he can't send the documents that he says don't exist.
I heard Mr. Bains say the documents from PCO don't exist. Well, then that's a very quick return for PCO to make. So if there's nothing to see here, I really don't understand why they are so determined to keep the information from coming out. You'll recall that we were told that sunshine is the best disinfectant and that that's what we would see from Justin Trudeau, but what we're seeing from his parliamentary secretaries—
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
On a point of order, Chair. Are we debating the motion in front of us or my amendment? My amendment has already passed.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay. The main motion doesn't even mention PCO anymore, so I don't understand. Mr. Barrett is accusing me of trying to cover something up. We voted on the PCO part. That's done. Now we're on the main motion.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Mr. Barrett is on the main motion. He's discussing the main motion. He has the floor, Ms. Damoff.
Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
We have Ms. Damoff, a parliamentary secretary for Justin Trudeau, who literally doesn't even want me to say PCO. She's trying to say that it's out of order for me to talk about PCO and PCO documents that were mentioned in the motion. We also have the former Clerk of the Privy Council in front of us dealing with Justin Trudeau's SNC-Lavalin scandal, in which he used his powers to protect himself from effective RCMP investigation. Now we have multiple parliamentary secretaries and members and Liberal chairs who are again trying to cover up what happened, and it's absolutely egregious, but of course it's also transparent to see that that's what they're doing.
So voting for a motion that is completely neutered, that is not providing the transparency that Canadians deserve, is an affront to the basic premise of openness, even considering how far it has fallen under this government. They seem to plumb new depths every day in their attempts to cover up for a corrupt Prime Minister.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Yes, Chair, it is. Thank you.
You know, Mr. Barrett insists on using words like “cover-up” and “corrupt” and he knows that my inbox is going to fill up. Already social media is talking about my being a pearl clutcher because I don't like the kinds of messages I get. I think maybe I should just walk over to Mr. Barrett's office and show him the kinds of wording and emails I get and the things I am called.
We're not a corrupt government, Mr. Barrett, in spite of what you want to say. The fact is that Mr. Villemure put forward a reasonable suggestion, especially since we're dealing with this at the last minute in committee. I was quite clear that if the documents we receive are not adequate, we can ask for more documents later.
This has been thrown at the committee at the last minute. There is absolutely no cover-up, and to imply that there is or to imply that there's some kind of corruption happening in the Government of Canada is just ridiculous, and it feeds into all of that kind of mistrust of our democracy that for some reason the Conservatives want to put out there for Canadians.
So, Chair, I feel really strongly. I was quite clear that this wording was removed in order for us to get documents quickly. This whole thing is about why the RCMP is not investigating. We've gone down such a slippery slope into other things that it's just mind-boggling to me, but we need to stop accusing people of covering up and being corrupt when that's simply not the case.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Damoff. We don't have endless time here.
Mr. Cooper, go ahead—
