Evidence of meeting #109 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
It's obvious. The report finds that Mr. Trudeau, directly or through intermediaries, tried to influence the former minister of justice a number of times.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
12:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Let's just say that the pressure on the former minister of justice suggested that it would be in the company's best interests. Moreover, SNC‑Lavalin's behaviour clearly shows that the company preferred a settlement rather than legal action. I think that the answer to the question is yes.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
In the report's findings, you said that Justin Trudeau used his position of authority to influence Ms. Wilson‑Raybould.
12:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes. Section 9 states that the act is violated when someone uses their position to improperly further another person's interests.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
In your report, you defined the concept of “improper”. You identified, for example, four instances where political and personal interests seemed to have prevailed over the public interest. Your report was, in a way, a finding of fault.
12:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
We're talking about a breach or violation of the Conflict of Interest Act.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
This breach directly violates section 9.
We often hear that an investigation must be based on facts. Were the facts at your disposal enough to lead to your findings?
12:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I think that we took about 40 pages to provide details of the dates, the people involved, what they did, and so on. In the first 40 pages of the report, you'll find all the facts to support my findings.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay. I read it carefully at the time. I happily read it again recently.
Cabinet confidence has been the subject of much discussion here. However, I would like to pick up on what Commissioner Duheme of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said in response to one of my questions. I wanted to know whether cabinet confidence was always the same, or whether it varied according to the context. His assistant, Mr. Pincince, responded that, at times, it was less airtight.
In your case, do you think that cabinet confidence is something enforced...
12:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I can respond, because I understood the question.
I have some experience with the concept of cabinet confidences. First, we talked about it in law school some time ago when I was a student. Second, I worked at the Privy Council Office where, for a year, I was in charge of the unit that dealt with issues relating to cabinet confidences.
When we tackled the “Trudeau II Report,” we came up against a certain number of witnesses—six or nine—who told us that they would send us all the documents we'd requested, except the ones that had to remain confidential due to the concept of cabinet confidences.
I was a bit surprised, because the Conflict of Interest Act seems to indicate that the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner should enjoy some confidence when it comes to confidential documents subject to cabinet protection. As I mentioned in the report, I therefore pursued the matter by writing to the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Shugart, to obtain more than what the order allowed Ms. Wilson‑Raybould to divulge. However, my request was declined.
At that time, I had to determine whether I had enough information to move forward or not. I considered the possibility of challenging the clerk's decision before the federal court. However, throughout my 43‑year career in public service, I was always mindful when it came to the use of public funds. Therefore, I decided that it wasn't worth wasting three years and spending $2 million to determine whether I would obtain access to those documents or not. As a result, we moved forward without the documents.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
All right.
When the RCMP decided to investigate that same matter, following the publication of your report, were you surprised by the RCMP's conclusions?
12:25 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I wasn't surprised, but it's not based on anything.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I know that's one impression.
That said, we know that the RCMP didn't obtain access to the documents protected by cabinet confidence either. As a result, they drew a different conclusion than you had, but it's one within the universe of possibilities.
12:25 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
It wasn't the same question.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
No, since we're talking about criminals or offences under the code.
12:25 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Correct.
12:25 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Obstruction of justice and contravention of section 9 aren't the same thing.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
No, they aren't.
This week, we heard from Mr. Wernick, who attempted in his appearance to tell the committee nothing. We repeated conversations verbatim, but Mr. Wernick didn't want to admit to them, even though they were his own words. I'm going from memory, but he suggested that Ms. Wilson‑Raybould use the legal tools at her disposal. Consequently, I'm forced to read between the lines. When you questioned him, was Mr. Wernick more cooperative? Did he provide you with anything interesting?
12:25 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes, Mr. Wernick did answer questions. I know him a little bit, having worked at the Privy Council Office at the same time. His answers were brief, but that's how he is.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
We understood that it's how he is.
Mr. von Finckenstein, Mr. Duheme from the RCMP admitted that he was not familiar with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner's mandate. What's your opinion?
12:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Pardon me?
