Information & Ethics Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It wasn't that hard.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We'll go to Mr. Brock for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, privacy is extremely important to Canadians and public servants, but so is safeguarding the prudent use of taxpayer funds. Federal spending on outsourcing increased to $14.6 billion last year, which is 74% higher than when the Liberals, under Justin Trudeau, promised in 2015 to cut back on the use of external consultants.

We now have evidence that ArriveCAN ballooned to at least $60 million. What you announced yesterday with your colleague, Minister Duclos, in my view, is only the tip of the iceberg, because Minister Duclos confirmed yesterday that the three companies in question that fraudulently billed taxpayers $5 million had nothing to do with ArriveCAN.

This brings me to the broader question: Of that $14.6 billion in outsourcing, how many billions of dollars, how many millions of dollars more in fraudulent contracting schemes are out there?

I know you talk about advanced data analytics, and this is how you uncovered the data, but the government always had this data capability. The biggest problem that Canadians have with your government, Minister, is you're very reactive, as opposed to proactive.

One company alone had billed 36 different federal departments, billing for the same hours in a given day. When they submitted their invoices, why was that not detected in 2018 with your advanced data analytics? Why wasn't that caught, Minister?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I want to specify that the Treasury Board did not have any involvement with the development of the ArriveCAN app—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm talking in a broader sense. Why wasn't the government able, with the capabilities of data analytics, to capture this in 2018 when it happened?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The app was built on an emergency basis under exceptional circumstances—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The Auditor General basically said that the urgency in a pandemic does not mean that you throw the rules out the window. You had an obligation to safeguard taxpayer money, and you abused that. You misused that.

What assurances do Canadians have that we're going to get to the bottom of the millions, if not billions of dollars—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Respecting—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Let me finish the question. What assurance can you give Canadians that you're going to actually follow up, that you're going to identify these companies and you're going to refer the matter to the RCMP for possible investigation and criminal charges? What can you say about that?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I agree with the findings of the Auditor General's report. That is why I published yesterday an update to the manager's guide on professional services.

I've also tabled, through a series of estimates, that we are reducing our reliance on outsourcing, including, in the estimates prior to the holidays, $350 million in reduced outsourcing contracts and reductions in the recent estimates that I have tabled, to about $900 million in total.

We are working on continuing to reduce our reliance on outsourcing. That is something I take extremely seriously. That's what I emphasized in my announcement yesterday.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, one of your former roles was as Minister of Public Services and Procurement. You held that role from November 20, 2019, to October 26, 2021.

I have before me the mandate letter that Justin Trudeau sent to you. I will read out various passages from it:

I...expect us to continue to raise the bar on openness, effectiveness and transparency in government....It also means humility and continuing to acknowledge mistakes when we make them. Canadians do not expect us to be perfect; they expect us to be diligent, honest, open and sincere in our efforts to serve the public interest.

Your leader, Justin Trudeau, has been anything but apologetic. I'm going to give you the opportunity, Minister. It's plainly obvious to Canadians that the $60 million was wasted on an app that was very ineffective, didn't save one Canadian life and is now subject to numerous RCMP investigations.

Are you prepared to admit your role? During the rollout of 177 different versions of the app, you were the minister. Are you prepared, here and now, to apologize to Canadians for the lack of ministerial oversight, yes or no?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was not the minister. The app was developed at CBSA. I was the minister of procurement. My mandate was vaccines and PPE—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You were still part of that, according to the Auditor General.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was not the minister—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Are you prepared to apologize to Canadians?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was not the minister—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Are you prepared to apologize to Canadians?

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Brock. That concludes your time. I appreciate that.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was not the minister, so that is incorrect.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, did you have anything to add at the end there?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes. Thank you very much.

Yesterday at committee and again today, false allegations were being thrown at a fellow member of Parliament and minister of the Crown. I find that surprising. I think all members of the House of Commons need to deal in facts rather than conjecture and false allegations.

I do take issue with the way in which language is being abused in this committee today and was abused yesterday.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you for clarifying, and thank you for joining us today.

I want to go back to the issues of non-compliance that came to light. How are they generally handled? How are these issues handled?