Information & Ethics Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How many?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

There are two.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you launched any investigations of your own accord, or are there only files that have been referred to you?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I've only launched investigations at the request of, I think, members of Parliament and maybe the public—I don't know—but I haven't launched any on my own.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you interviewed relevant people in those cases at this point?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Mario explained to you the process, and that's exactly what we're following. We decide who has to be interviewed. We have a set of questions. They are posed by the investigator. I'm there. I'm present. I may ask additional questions for clarification as required.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have two quick questions in my last 15 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ask them very quickly.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you received access to all the documents you've requested? When can Parliament expect a return on those reports, sir?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Yes, I have received all the documents I've asked for. We are interviewing a few more witnesses, and then as soon as we can, we will issue a report.

Obviously, I'm fully aware that time is of the essence. These things shouldn't drag out too long, both for the public and for the person being investigated, so we will do it with dispatch.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, sir.

We'll go to Ms. Damoff for six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being with us here today.

Mr. Dion, thank you for coming to the committee to talk about a report that was done a number of years ago.

I have some questions for you on subsection 49(1) of the act, which talks about suspending your investigation. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but just for those who aren't, it's about when you need to suspend an investigation. It reads, “the Commissioner believes on reasonable grounds that the public office holder or former public office holder has committed an offence under an Act of Parliament”. There's more to it, but I'll leave it at that.

When you testified in 2022 about whether or not you would hesitate to turn something over to the RCMP, you responded that, “It is a mandatory provision, so it's not a choice that the commissioner has. The commissioner has an obligation to refer it to the police force that has jurisdiction”. You must always be mindful of that in your investigation.

I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about this report and whether you referred it to the RCMP. I guess that's the first question.

[Mario Dion]

In any investigation, section 49 is always present in our minds, because facts evolve. These investigations take several months.

In relation to the “Trudeau II Report”, Michael Aquilino, who is with me, did a preliminary analysis of whether there were reasonable grounds to believe an offence to another act of Parliament was involved, and came to the conclusion that there wasn't such a situation.

Throughout the investigation, we always had the question present in our minds, because it's an absolute duty to do that. At no point did I feel that I had reasonable grounds to believe that the Prime Minister had committed an offence to any other statute. Therefore, I did not refer the matter to the RCMP.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much

I wonder if you could talk a bit—and perhaps we could get our current commissioner to comment on this as well—about the importance of the independence of both the RCMP and the Conflict of Interest and Ethics ​​Commissioner.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

As you can appreciate, what is vested in the commissioner is a lot of discretion to look at the various situations that he faces and to decide how to proceed.

Section 49 is a perfect example of that. The commissioner independently investigates something. If he has reasonable grounds to believe a criminal offence may have been committed, he stops right away and he refers it to the RCMP. He is independent, but so is the RCMP, and obviously criminal things are more important than is conflict of interest, so if there's a criminal matter, it has to be looked at first.

If the RCMP decide that they do not want to investigate or they investigate and conclude, then we continue with the conflict of interest issue, but the two should not interfere with each other. We both have a mandate. We both have to exercise it to the best of our ability, and the statute specifically vests powers for criminal prosecutions in the RCMP and for conflict of interest in us.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Just before I go to Mr. Dion on the same question, I wonder if you could comment on the importance of your office being independent from interference by politicians, as well as in the case of the RCMP.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

The whole system is set up such that we are independent. We are not partisan. We are not influenced by any consideration other than what the mandate is.

In my case, I make sure there are no conflicts of interest, and the RCMP makes sure there are no criminal activities. That decision should be made objectively, on the basis of fact, and without any influence from any connections or partisanship or anything else.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Dion, could you comment on that?

[Mario Dion]

I've said many times during my tenure that it is clear that Parliament intended that the commissioner would be tasked with the mandate, which Konrad just described, in the conflict of interest sphere, and that the commissioner would be a person the government had tried to ensure would have some judgment when appointed.

Throughout the past five years, I have felt completely independent and non-partisan. There has been no attempt whatsoever at any point by anyone to influence in an inappropriate manner with the work of the commissioner, and I'm sure that will continue to be the case in the future, because it's one of the safeguards we have in our democracy, and everybody seems to understand that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you want to comment on the independence of the RCMP as well?

[Mario Dion]

Frankly, I don't think I'm qualified to do that, because I have not read the RCMP Act in the last 30 years, so it's hard for me to imagine.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. That's fair.

Thank you both for being here today—all three of you, actually, for being here today.

Chair, I know I have only about 10 seconds left, so I'll give it back to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming.

Mr. Dion, you conducted the investigation in question. I would like to ask you three yes or no questions. My questions concern the information in your report.

Did Mr. Trudeau try to influence Jody Wilson‑Raybould?