Evidence of meeting #122 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was randy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
As far as this mission is concerned, I understand that the level of reliability or research you're being asked for seems adequate to you.
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, absolutely.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
During the execution of your mandate, not only in the case of Mr. Boissonnault, but in any other case, did you at any time have the impression that you were being pressured or that certain individuals, members of the government or others, were trying to influence you in some way?
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There was no pressure put on me or my office. Generally speaking, people respect the neutrality of our office. What we do is strictly confidential and objective. To my knowledge, no one has ever tried to influence our objectivity.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. von Finckenstein, thank you for answering my questions in French. It's remarkable, and I appreciate it. It's a great sign of respect.
Thank you, Mr. von Finckenstein.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
The commissioner is indeed able to speak French. We agree with that as well, Mr. Fortin.
Mr. Green, you have six minutes. Go ahead.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Commissioner, first of all, were you able to watch the last round of questioning?
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Do you recall my exchange with him about the listing of companies, the numbered company versus the “operating as”?
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. You asked him to do that, and I understand he undertook to furnish such a list.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Well, we hope he will.
When disclosures are made, what are the requirements? If a company is a numbered company, is it required to disclose who it's operating as in order to provide public disclosure?
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The disclosure is very simple. You can own a company. You can have an interest in it. That's no problem. You can't run a company if you're elected and you're appointed minister.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
The purpose of the disclosure, if I could, sir, is to identify to the public who the beneficial owners are of companies. It is my suggestion that numbered companies that do not actually list who they're operating as obscures the beneficial ownership, does it not?
12:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Why is a numbered company obscuring official ownership any more than a non-numbered company? I'm sorry. I don't get your point.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
For instance, if there's a numbered company operating as the Navis Group, and the Navis Group is the one who's listed as the contractors, but on the disclosures it only shows the numbered company, then an average person would assume, objectively, that they couldn't make the connection between the numbered company and the operating company, the new named operating company.
12:40 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The disclosure is not made for the average person, first of all. It's made for the office. Only the portions that have to be disclosed and put on the public record will be put on the public record.
Obviously, if you have a numbered company that also operates under a name, it would be appropriate to disclose both. If you don't do that.... As I mentioned before, each person appointed gets a counsellor to advise them. The counsellor will certainly ask you, “You own 3509 Limited. Does this company operate under a trade name or not?” Therefore, it would be disclosed.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Is that part of the standard questions advisers provide to cabinet ministers?
12:40 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I would hope so. I have 53 people working for me. I don't know whether they all do that, but they should. Clearly, it—
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Could you please report back to this committee, sir, on what questions are required for cabinet minister disclosure?
I'll state this to you: It is a material non-disclosure to omit what your operating name is when it comes to procurement. The crux of a conflict of interest, as you and I have talked about many times, sir, is not just the actual conflict but also the perceived conflict. When there are instances where there is reporting that demonstrates a cabinet minister is receiving contracts through a numbered company in a deferred payment arrangement, when the actual procurement happens with an operating name other than the numbered company, to me, sir, that would erode and undermine the public trust when it comes to open and transparent procurement practices related to companies connected to ministers.
12:40 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First of all, Lyne, do you want to answer his question on what questions counsellors use regarding numbered companies?
June 4th, 2024 / 12:40 p.m.
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Essentially, when the office is informed of a private company or any other company, the requirement is to disclose the numbered company, the registered company name or the corporation's legal name, its trade name. It doesn't matter right now, at this present time, whether they report one, both or strictly the numbered company. In those cases, we will go back to the reporting public office holder and ask whether or not there is an operating name, whether the company is operating under a legal name or another name. If we have that name, we will make it public.
However, there is no requirement to disclose either the numbered company or the operating company's name. One or the other is perfectly acceptable under the act and under the code, as well.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's acceptable under the act and the code, but I think it's fair to say, in this instance, that it presents a bit of a problem in terms of public confidence related to the ability to track procurement contracts that are material in nature. We're talking about big contracts here.
Is it your recommendation that this committee recommend that all disclosures of numbered companies include the operating and trade names in order to provide greater transparency and accountability to the public and office? Quite frankly, as was identified, you can only investigate what is submitted to you. If you're submitted a numbered company and you're looking for contradictions or conflicts within the act but don't know what the operating name is, would that not provide a significant investigative gap in terms of your ability to confirm or investigate any potential conflicts?
12:40 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Mr. Green, I set the rules for what the counsellors ask to clearly establish whether there is a numbered company involved. There has to be a follow-up question as to whether it has a trade name or not. If so, that has to be disclosed. We are not trying to hide anything. I'm not trying to help anybody hide anything. It's something we can easily—