Evidence of meeting #122 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was randy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you.
We do have an amendment.
Is there any discussion on the amendment?
Go ahead, Ms. Damoff, on the amendment.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I would just say that we have the commissioner here right now. I know that it was very important to the committee that he be brought before the committee to offer testimony, and instead we've been sidetracked. He's already said that he's going to be looking into what he read in the newspaper, and so I think we should let him do his work. Therefore, I move to adjourn debate.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We have a motion to adjourn debate on the proposed amendment by Mr. Green. There's no discussion on adjourning the debate on this motion, so I'll ask for consensus.
Is there consensus?
1:10 p.m.
An hon member
No.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay. We're going to go to a recorded vote.
Madam Clerk, on the motion by Ms. Damoff to adjourn debate, go ahead, please.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 4)
The motion carries to adjourn debate, so we are adjourning debate.
We're returning to our next line of questioning.
Mr. Kurek, your time was concluded.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Just for clarification, does a motion to adjourn debate on the amendment to the motion adjourn the entire debate on the motion—
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
—or simply the amendment that was being debated?
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
It is to adjourn debate on the entire motion, including the proposed amendment. Now, a member can resume debate at any time in a future meeting when they have the floor on this matter, and we would continue on the amendment as proposed by Mr. Green. Then, of course, the floor would be open for interventions at that point. Does that clear it up?
Okay. We're continuing again with the commissioner. I have Mr. Bains for five minutes.
Just keep in mind we have until 1:30, and I'm going to need a little bit of time here for discussion on the issue that Mr. Bains brought up at the beginning of the meeting.
Mr. Bains, go ahead.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again, thank you for your patience, Commissioner. Director, thank you for joining us today.
Can you please explain the difference between what a minister has to disclose in their disclosures versus a member of Parliament? Is there more scrutiny for either of them?
1:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, the member of Parliament has to comply with the code that sets out what you can do and what you can't do. A big exception, which we discussed at one point in time, was sponsored travel. There's no prohibition against sponsored travel for members of Parliament; however, once you become a parliamentary secretary or minister, you have to live up to the act, and the act specifies various things that you can and cannot do.
One of them is, for instance, that you cannot operate a company, and you can't be involved in a company. You can own it, but you can't operate it. Another one is extensive prohibitions against gifts. They have controlled assets, what you may own or what you may not own or what you have to put in line of trust.
It's a very complex set of regulations that is applied to what we call reporting public office holders, i.e. ministers, secretaries of state and OIC appointments. It's much more stringent, much more limited, than for people who are elected to the House of Commons. They obviously have to avoid conflicts of interest. They have to recuse themselves, etc., but there are all sorts of outside activities as a member of Parliament you can do that you can't do as a minister.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Do you believe that your office has done enough to educate the members on the differences between what rules are more stringent versus, say, an elected official?
1:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We try to educate as much as possible.
We just developed an online tool for members of Parliament. Once you're elected, first of all, you get training from us. We are asked to do that. Then there's an online tool that walks you through the various possible situations and issues and how to resolve them, etc. We don't have one yet for ministers or reporting officers, but we're in the process of developing that tool.
We always think that the best way for people not to get into conflict of interest is to be informed, to know what it is, etc. That's why, for every single person who falls under the code now, we appoint someone in our office. This is your contact. If you have any issues, talk to that person. That person is there to help you. You can always do more. It also depends on how much time people want to spend on it. You're all very busy people, and you have a lot of other things to do. Some of this is, frankly speaking, tedious. Some people say, “I know this.” Others say it's very peculiar and very new to people. To the extent that people are willing to learn and be educated, we provide as much as we can.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Commissioner.
I'm going to share the rest of my time with Ms. Damoff.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
That's longer than I thought.
Commissioner, I wonder if you could talk briefly about how much more rigorous the requirements are for ministers and parliamentary secretaries, not just on sponsored travel, but on the actual form itself.
1:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The expert on the form sits beside me, so go ahead, Lyne.
June 4th, 2024 / 1:15 p.m.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Essentially, I would say that the forms are pretty much identical between the MP code and the act. Why? It's because we ask for information about assets, liabilities, investments, companies and businesses. We ask about outside activities under both regimes; however, as the commissioner explained, there are more stringent rules with regard to measures that reporting public office holders, including ministers, will have to abide by versus a member of Parliament.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
These are things like not owning stocks. You can own mutual funds, but you can't be actively involved in a company. You can still be a part owner, but you have to put it in a blind trust. Is that correct?
1:15 p.m.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's correct. Those are measures that are required under the Conflict of Interest Act.
1:15 p.m.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Reporting public office holders must divest of their controlled assets. They also must step down from any business.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I have only a few seconds left, so I'm going to make a personal plea to the members of the Conservative Party—