Evidence of meeting #127 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Mr. Barrett, let me refer you to the Ethics Commissioner's letter from June 25, when he stated very clearly:
Other than the name 'Randy' being used in text messages from Mr. Anderson to Malvina Ghaoui, messages which according to the published excerpts were neither addressed nor copied to you, I do not have any information before me to support the allegation that you were involved in managing or operating GHI....
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You expect Canadians to believe that the Randy referred to in these texts nine times is anyone else but you, that the Randy who was in Vancouver and who needs to be updated on the money transfer is anyone else but you. You admit to speaking to your business partner on the phone. Why don't you just admit that you're the Randy that he's talking about?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
The person in question was no longer my business partner. I was simply a shareholder of the company. I had no operational role in that company. Because Purolator was looking to settle an account, they had my number still in their logbook. They reached out to me. They could not contact GHI. I informed Mr. Anderson of that fact. He called me. I informed him that I would send him the text, which I did, and the conversation ended there, and the texts are with the commissioner and with this committee, Mr. Barrett.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
A year after you claim to have been done being involved in the operations of this business, you're expecting us to believe that you are dealing with your business partner on accounts payable but you're not dealing with him on accounts receivable. That, of course, is far too incredible for anyone to believe.
Have you ever been given money from Mr. Anderson since 2021 to either your...from his personal bank accounts or from any bank accounts of people that he is connected with? I ask, Minister, because I've got to say that where there's smoke, there's fire.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
No, Mr. Barrett. You're simply mistaken. Purolator reached out to me because they had my number in an old logbook—
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
The question is about the money: Have you received money?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
You had several questions in your statement and you had a long time. Am I able to answer with the time that he used, Mr. Chair?
Conservative
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you very much.
Look, I was very clear that I earned no income from GHI after I stopped working for the company when I was elected. There was one end of...or a wrap-up payment for 2021 that came to me to wrap up the 2021 business, but those monies came from GHI.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you very much, Chair.
Just in trying to follow the jumble of dates and so on that Mr. Barrett was referring to, Minister Boissonnault, can you explain the context of this phone call that Mr. Barrett is asking about? I'm hearing the dates of the 6th and the 8th. Which is it?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Ms. Shanahan, I'm happy to provide context for this call.
These were the additional records and dates that the Ethics Commissioner reviewed prior to his September 12 letter. On September 6, while I was en route to Vancouver, a call came in that I was not able to take regarding GHI's account with the company. They were using records they had on file in an attempt to reach somebody from the company.
Despite the fact that I had not been involved in the company for more than a year, I then got a voice mail to text indicating Global Health's import account with Purolator. I texted Mr. Anderson to let him know about this voice mail. He then called me at 11:29 Mountain Time for a one-minute phone call. At 11:30 Mountain Time, that phone call ended. We discussed this account entirely. That was it. I forwarded the messages from Purolator to Mr. Anderson, and the conversation ended.
This is all documented clearly in the records that I provided to the Ethics Commissioner and that we have submitted proactively to the committee today for your information, and it was after reviewing these messages that the Ethics Commissioner wrote to me on September 12 and declined to investigate and closed this matter.
If I may, Madam Shanahan, the commissioner said the following: “On the basis of the information you have provided, and in the absence of any evidence giving me reason to believe you may have been operating or managing GHI in contravention of the act, I consider this matter closed.”
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you very much for that clarification, Minister. I'm sure Mr. Barrett appreciates it as well.
Minister Boissonnault, I'll switch to French.
My constituents in Châteauguay—Lacolle, soon to be Châteauguay—Les Jardins-de-Napierville, are very interested in this issue because they hear a lot about what one might call “fake scandals”. They ask me what's going on in Ottawa when there's a conflict of interest or something fishy.
Every MP who comes to Ottawa goes over their public and private interests with the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. An MP may own or have owned a company or a portfolio of shares and properties, for example. Some MPs own a lot of properties. I imagine that analyzing the situation takes much longer for some than for others.
Can you tell us how that process works?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Yes, absolutely.
As you noted, Mrs. Shanahan, there is a very important process. All MPs have legal responsibilities. We must all comply with the Conflict of Interest Act and ethics guidelines.
When you become a minister, the process is much more complex. You have to spend time with the Commissioner and their officers. You have to submit your bank statements, all documents concerning your investments, all the information about your spouse and any business or businesses that your spouse is in charge of. The point is that the Commissioner looks at all of those documents. Then there's a conversation about how assets, shares and anything else can be transferred to ensure compliance with the act, if necessary. The process can take several months. In my case, it took six months before everything was settled. Then, all that personal information has to be updated annually. That's another very important part of it.
Perhaps the best way to explain this to our fellow citizens is to use a sports analogy: The referee is there to see if people are following the rules. In our case, the referee is the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. He indicated, not just once, but three times, that the allegations made by the Conservatives and the allegations that appeared in the media were indeed only allegations and that he considers the matter closed, period.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's very interesting, Minister, because MPs sometimes make mistakes. You realize things, and then you get an email, for example. It's very reassuring to know that you can contact the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner and it'll all be looked into.
If I understand correctly, in your case, it wasn't just once or twice, but three times that the Commissioner said it was nothing but allegations. Is that right?
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
On three occasions, your activities were scrutinized and nothing was found.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Absolutely. The Ethics Commissioner was very clear, Mrs. Shanahan. Last time, he indicated that, based on the information I provided and in the absence of any evidence that would give him reason to believe I could have managed the company in question, which would have been against the law, he considered the matter to be closed.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's great.
What information did you provide? What evidence did the Commissioner ask you for?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I provided a log of my phone calls and text messages from the dates in question.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mrs. Shanahan and Mr. Boissonnault.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Minister, I listened carefully to the sequence of events. For the benefit of my fellow Quebeckers, we'll go over a few things again in French.
Despite the Ethics Commissioner's three findings, here we are today.
Why do you think that is? What's the real reason?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
That's a question for your colleagues.
I think there are some people around the table, Conservative members, who don't believe the truth and don't believe the Ethics Commissioner's findings.
That's too bad, because he's the referee. He's an officer of Parliament. Parliament pays his salary and provides him with a team, and when an officer of Parliament issues a ruling on personal matters, business matters or matters involving compliance with the act, it's important to take him at his word. I think that's important.
Mr. Villemure, I'm telling you and your constituents that I take my oath as an MP and minister very seriously. That's why I'm appearing here a second time, so that we can put this matter to rest and so I can answer the honourable members' questions very clearly.