Evidence of meeting #132 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, it's interference in government processes.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay. With that being said, have you, in your career, ever had an investigation that met that threshold?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Like I said, not personally because this is a new law; it was enacted about six weeks ago.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Again, I'm sorry; I'm not trying to be stubborn here. Just to be clear, prior to that, there was no such investigation.
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
For government processes.... No. However, what I was trying to explain is that there are other sections in the Criminal Code where disinformation itself may not constitute the offence, but a foreign state actor could have committed other offences in the Criminal Code that we could utilize.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay. Again, in our study on social media platforms, Bryan Larkin, the deputy commissioner of the RCMP's specialized policing services, said that the RCMP has “ongoing relationships with all social media platforms” through its national cybercrime coordination centre and that the RCMP also has “protocols in place, particularly around [things like] child exploitation and harm to young people”.
Does the RCMP, given the new law, now have a specific protocol in place for dealing with foreign states spreading misinformation online in Canada?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I'm not sure I understand the question, sir. Are you asking if we have contacts within the social media platforms, in regards to disinformation?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, we do.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm asking you this: Do you have specific protocols in place for dealing with foreign states spreading misinformation online in Canada, whether it's through the national cybercrime coordination centre or any other policy or protocol you might have within the RCMP?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
We maintain, especially on the major platforms, contacts with their security branch on a wide range of investigations because social media is used by all criminals, not just for disinformation, so we maintain contacts with them to obtain information—
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
—when needed, so—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm sorry. I'm going to ask this question, and it's for the purpose of the study. Can you please provide this committee with the specific protocols that you have in place when dealing with foreign states spreading misinformation online in Canada? Can you do that for us?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I'm trying to answer the question, sir. What I was trying to explain is that we don't have specific.... We don't police the Internet. We don't have specific.... We need a victim, so when people come forward with allegations of disinformation and criminal offences that would have occurred on the platform, then we have protocols to engage with the social media companies to ensure we capture this disinformation.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Can you give us some examples of how the RCMP engages with the public or with the private entities that you've just listed, or with vulnerable communities, to educate them about the risks of foreign interference activities?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. You're asking for examples. If we get a complaint from people who would have received threats online from a foreign state or actors of a foreign state, then we would engage the social media platform, sometimes on an urgent basis if there's threat to life, to obtain information on the perpetrator, to ensure public safety and to stop the threats to that person.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
You'll have another chance, Mr. Green. We're going to come back to you in a few minutes.
That concludes our first round. Mr. Cooper is going to start us off with our second round for five minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Chair, on April 10 of this year, The Globe and Mail reported that in 2019 the then Liberal candidate and now the member of Parliament for Don Valley North was tipped off by a Liberal Party member that he was being monitored by CSIS.
It was confirmed at the public inquiry on foreign interference that only a select few top Liberals, closely connected to the Prime Minister, were present at a classified CSIS briefing where this information was communicated. Three top Liberals received the briefing, including Azam Ishmael, the national director of the Liberal Party. Mr. Ishmael then briefed Jeremy Broadhurst, who did have the requisite security clearance, Broadhurst being a top adviser to the Prime Minister. Broadhurst then briefed the Prime Minister.
What we know is that five top Liberals, including the Prime Minister himself, were briefed. That information resulted in a leak in which a candidate, now a member of Parliament, was tipped off that he was being monitored by CSIS.
Can you confirm that knowingly leaking classified information is an offence under sections 13 and 14 of the Security of Information Act?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. Leaking classified information is a criminal offence.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Would it be fair to say that it is a serious offence punishable by up to 14 years behind bars?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. I believe you're correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Following The Globe and Mail report, I sent a letter to the commissioner of the RCMP, dated April 12 of this year, bringing to his attention this apparent serious breach of national security whereby evidence points to five top Liberals, one of whom or more than one of whom may have betrayed their oath of secrecy and leaked classified information undermining ongoing national security operations. On May 3, 2024, I received a letter from the commissioner acknowledging my letter.
Since that time, has the RCMP opened an investigation?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Chair, I won't be able to comment on any facts of whether we have or not an investigation.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Okay, fair enough: I understand that you might not be able to comment on it if an investigation has been opened, but the commissioner did say in his letter that the RCMP would examine this information.
Has the RCMP examined the information surrounding serious allegations contained in The Globe and Mail report about a major national security breach involving top Liberals close to the Prime Minister, perhaps even the Prime Minister himself?