Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Mr. Chair, is the question how we prepared for the committee?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The question is, in preparing for the committee and preparing for this work, for this study, did you take a look at best practices in other jurisdictions?

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Yes, we always do, and not just for this committee, Mr. Chair. We were part of the Five Eyes committee.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Can you please provide what examples you would use from other jurisdictions that you would have as recommendations for this study?

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I'm not familiar with the study, but there are several best practices that we use. One of them that we're trying to do right now on foreign interference is breaking the silos between police services. When I say "silos", it's really raising awareness of transnational repression, because officers on the street may not realize that they're dealing with such a crime, and they may just see it as a threat. For example, we're trying to utilize some of these committees that are already in existence to spread this information, including Bill C-70, to all our colleagues across Canada. That's one example of sharing information.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In your opinion, what were the learnings from the NSICOP report?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, Mr. Green; I've stopped your time because I want to make sure that our witnesses are clear on what your demand is and what you're asking them. I think it's important for this study that we get an answer. Is there some other way that you want to rephrase it?

I've stopped your time to give you that opportunity.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I would ask, because of the nature of the time, if the witnesses from the RCMP would provide to this committee, in writing, any notes they took or any preparation memos they had on examples from other jurisdictions that were dealing with this.

They mentioned that they're always looking at best practices. I'm keen to get recommendations from these witnesses here today for the purpose of our study. I don't know that I've necessarily gotten that, to this point. I just want to provide them the opportunity to provide in writing what direct recommendations they would take, based on best practices from other jurisdictions in law enforcement.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I think I'm seeing some heads nod at the end of the table here. I think they understand what the request is.

I will ask, through the clerk, for a follow-up with the parliamentary affairs people in the RCMP to make sure we get a response to that.

Mr. Beaudoin, did you have anything you wanted to add?

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

No. I just wanted to apologize if I'm not answering the question to the level you're seeking. It's certainly not our will.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

We'll happily provide a written response once we get a clear question and we fully understand the impact—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's why I wanted to have this interaction, so that all of us were clear on what the ask was.

Mr. Green, you still have 40 seconds. Are you good?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm okay. I'm happy with that.

Thank you for the intervention, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry. I don't normally do that, but I wanted to make sure we had the information. Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Caputo, followed by Ms. Shanahan.

Go ahead, Mr. Caputo. You have five minutes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Chief Superintendent Baylin, Chief Superintendent Beaudoin and Director General O'Hayon.

I want to pick up from where my colleague Mr. Barrett left off. He was speaking about appropriate resourcing. The Auditor General released a report in June of this past year. I'm not sure if you've read that report or are familiar with it.

Chief Superintendent Baylin, you're nodding your head.

[C/Supt Richard Baylin]

I think we're talking about the same report, but I'll wait for you to continue the question.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It was a pretty major report in June. It talked about the RCMP and resourcing. It talked about resourcing generally, and my colleague Mr. Barrett asked about resourcing.

I want to take a quote from that report and put it to you, sir. It says this:

Overall, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police..., Communications Security Establishment Canada, and the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission...did not have the capacity and tools to effectively enforce laws intended to protect Canadians from cyberattacks and address the growing volume and sophistication of cybercrime.

That's a direct quote, I believe, of the Auditor General. What do you say to that?

[C/Supt Richard Baylin]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

What I would say to that is that we've learned from that report that the evolution of cybercrime has required us to focus our efforts at a higher level. I mentioned the word "ecosystem" earlier. We are evolving our techniques. We are evolving tools.

I did also say that I'm always interested in having a conversation about resourcing and how we can better approach and deal with the aspects of cybercriminality. But I also said earlier as well, you will remember, that the Auditor General report did go back a number of years. When we talk about our initial approach to cybercrime and cyber-enabled crime, frauds and so on and so forth, and where we've now evolved to, that work still needs to continue, but moving away from an incident response-type aspect of cybercrime and working at a level of criminality that is about dismantling a system that enables cybercrime.

We're refocusing a lot of our efforts in that respect to make sure we can adequately deal with the issue.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm mindful of that, sir. Given what the Auditor General has said, and given the slow machinations of government and how long it takes, as someone who has prosecuted a great deal of cybercrime, I believe the Auditor General has put it quite clearly that resources are a problem. Resources are a problem. In this instance, the Auditor General highlighted one case with the CRTC where, in order to get around a warrant, I believe a device was essentially wiped or destroyed.

In any event, I will move on to the RCMP superintendents.

Can you confirm that there are no PRC police stations operating in Canada at this time?

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Again, I'm not going to comment on the ongoing investigation. It's been well-detailed that there are ongoing investigations on this, so I'm not going to provide any further comments.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

With respect, I believe that Mr. Mendicino, when he was Minister of Public Safety, actually publicly commented on this issue in 2023, saying that the police stations had been shut down. I think that this is a matter that concerns Canadians greatly, particularly groups that are targeted. Candidly, I'm a bit surprised that we can't even hear, in Parliament, whether or not there are police stations. I understand that there are active investigations or there might be—I'm not sure whether there might be. How can we not just say yes or no, these things are or are not operating, and how does that jeopardize an investigation?

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

There is active investigation. To your point, saying there might be, I think it was confirmed that is active investigation. Again, I'm not going to comment further on this subject.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

From what I can understand, the RCMP said that they shut these down in 2023. If that's different in 2024, here we are as parliamentarians, studying foreign interference, so I think we should know whether or not there has been a change. Do you have any comment about that?

[C/Supt Denis Beaudoin]

I don't have any comments, Mr. Chair.