Evidence of meeting #132 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Chair, again, I'm not going to comment on this question.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Well, has the RCMP contacted any of these top Liberals?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Chair, again, I'm not going to comment on—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Well, I think there needs to be a certain level of transparency. I know you can't comment on any ongoing investigation. I understand that. I respect that.
I'll put it to you this way: Has the Prime Minister contacted the RCMP? Has he referred this national security breach to the attention of the RCMP?
Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Chair, it's the same answer: I'm not going to comment on it.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Well, it's interesting that you're not able to comment.
It's interesting further that the Prime Minister has been silent about it. He certainly hasn't said that he has referred the matter to the attention of the RCMP.
We have seen the Liberals at committee try to obstruct efforts to get to the bottom of this major national security breach. Frankly, what we've seen in terms of the Prime Minister's silence and obstruction by Liberal MPs—no doubt directed by the Prime Minister—is part of a pattern with this Prime Minister.
It's part of a pattern of a Prime Minister who has continually put his personal and partisan political interests and that of protecting top Liberals implicated in a serious crime—leaking classified information that may have compromised a CSIS investigation into Beijing's interference activities—ahead of our national security.
Canadians deserve better.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Cooper.
We're going now to Mr. Bains for five minutes.
Go ahead, sir.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our respective director generals for joining us today.
I want to talk about Bill C-70. I think you mentioned that it's a welcome legislative change with some measures that it brought in. Can you talk about cybersecurity and how it intersects with security of information and signals intelligence? Do you feel sufficient improvements have been made through that legislation? Does it allow you to have more powers and more ability to do the work of targeting misinformation, disinformation or any foreign threats through information specifically?
C/Supt Richard Baylin
I can comment on one aspect of that from a cyber perspective. Certainly, it does give us more than we had. As my colleague, Mr. Beaudoin, had mentioned, it's very early days. We will see where that takes us and how much more room that gives us, but absolutely, there is more there than what we had before.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
These changes have been brought in after decades of following the same measures, but for the new offences, do the resources that are now available to you satisfy your needs? I understand that it's new right now and you're probably working through it. I think you said that as of last week some new laws had just been enacted. Can you speak to the processes that have been in place and how much work you still need to do to really roll this out?
C/Supt Richard Baylin
I can speak to that, to a certain extent. Over the last year to 18 months or maybe even two years, the threat related to cyber has evolved. Initially, cyber was looked at much more as a tactical threat and a criminal threat. Most of the evolution of cybercrime and cyber investigative teams was focused on that aspect. It's only more recently that our focus has opened up to looking at things like we're talking about here today, such as disinformation aspects around more of a strategic threat from a national security perspective.
That's where this legislation has led us. We'll continue to work within the framework of that to see where it goes, but yes, absolutely, we do have more now than we did.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Does this allow you to increase your work with other jurisdictions on transnational misinformation campaigns where they can be monitored with allies and things like that? Does that give you more abilities there?
C/Supt Richard Baylin
It gives us more aspects of criminality to speak to, because we're speaking beyond just, as I mentioned, that tactical threat, the criminal threat and working within this space. Yes, within our law enforcement and like-minded communities, these are the discussions that we do have now.
The "ecosystem" of cyber that the RCMP likes to refer to, as do our partners, is made up of many parts. Many of those parts actually cross paths from that criminal side into that national security side. It might be some of the same threat actors and some of that same ecosystem and infrastructure that we focus on, but we're now looking at it through a different lens, a national security lens, and that is helpful to us as well.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
On the threat actors piece, have you identified specific platforms? We've seen how toxic X has become. Are you monitoring more on the social media side? I know you said you don't police it, but are you noticing an increase in threats in certain spaces, like the dark web and these other spaces, that are available to people? Also, what actions you have taken to include into your processes?
C/Supt Richard Baylin
We certainly have seen, over the last number of years, an evolution in that. That has been well reported on in the public not just by the RCMP but by law enforcement writ large, and that, again, is one of the aspects of many of the things we look at.
You mentioned the dark web. Certainly, there are all sorts of different tools that enable criminality, and people who don't have sophisticated means, for example, to engage in things like ransomware and threats and so on are now able to obtain those with a very low level of sophistication and then conduct criminality.
I'm not sure if that answers your question.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Baylin.
Thank you, Mr. Bains.
Over to you, Mr. Trudel, for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you.
Mr. O'Hayon, I'd like to pick up our conversation about the coming election—granted, it's as likely to be called in six months as it is in two weeks or a month.
I know you can't comment on ongoing investigations, but what worries you?
You said you've been preparing for eight months. What's the thing most likely to happen during the election campaign? In concrete terms, what could states such as Iran, China and Russia do?
Director General, Federal Policing Security Intelligence, Intelligence and International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The reason we've been preparing for months is that we face a range of threats, from violent extremism, as my colleague mentioned, to foreign interference.
Director General, Federal Policing Security Intelligence, Intelligence and International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
It simply comes down to the fact that we're going to have to take in, analyze, and respond to, a greater amount of information than was the case during the 43rd and 44th general elections.
I can't really tell you what the thing most likely to happen is, but considering that we're here to discuss disinformation and misinformation, I'd say we'll certainly see those two things.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
All right.
What kind of disinformation could we see?
For what purpose would a country like China undertake interference activities on social media? Would it be to benefit the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP or the Bloc Québécois? How does it work?
Director General, Federal Policing Security Intelligence, Intelligence and International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The strategy and goals vary depending on the country. The documents that have been made available through the public inquiry into foreign interference refer to the various strategic goals of countries such as China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan and India.
You have to put yourself in the enemy's shoes and think about what they want. According to the document summaries that have been released under the inquiry, Russia's goal is to stir up trouble, wreak havoc and create social polarization. China's goal, however, is quite different.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. O'Hayon and Mr. Trudel.
Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I want to go back to better understand how the RCMP prepared for this meeting, understanding that we're talking about foreign interference.
We've just had, I think, some major revelations vis-à-vis NSICOP. I'm wondering if, in preparation for this meeting, either of the witnesses had the opportunity to reflect on global comparators, other national police services akin to the RCMP that might also be dealing with these same types of situations.